Ban Hilde

Ban Hilde.

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crow_winters said:
What is the December patch in reference to? I haven't heard about that.

And as for the namco score board: Yup.
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Namco told Norcal they'd release a patch..... next year. Of course, it's Namco, so they'll fuck it up anyway, in all likelihood.

Also, we should seriously discuss Rigel's suggestion. Don't just blow it off as "Too Smash-like."
 
DrakeAldan said:
Well, we can argue semantics, and I can fall back on Oof's old argument (or whoever came up with it... before Sirlin, I guess) on how you should be arguing why you should ban it in the first place, but.

Look at the weaknesses of C3 B.

1) It has to be charged. There is a period where no vertical attacks are being thrown (4 seconds, if I'm quoting correctly). You should at least be able to train yourself to recognize this as a red flag.
2) During this period, a Hilde is usually occupying themselves with spacing. Are you saying you cannot land a hit or bait a response within 4 seconds?
3) It can be stepped like everything else. You step away from the lance, to her right. Of course, Hilde has anti-step for this, but this situation is obvious.

I can start mounting information on the mindgames here. (I may have to do so for my own benefit.)

Anyway. There is a way around this problem. It is not godly enough in my eyes to warrant a complete denial from the game.

And as for whiffing, well... I guess you should be studying your own character's spacing attributes, then... I mean, it is your character after all, you should at least know your own range...
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I'd worry more about C3A, but otherwise agreed with the theory behind this post.
 
Sora said:
I'd worry more about C3A, but otherwise agreed with the theory behind this post.
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In theory, yes.

In practice, there's too many variables. Even if you know your character like the back of your hand, you'll have to limit your moveset severely just to get around it.

Then if she guesses right and gets a step or a jump, it's game over.


But only on a wall-less stage. If we can keep her in a fully walled stage, that may weaken other characters with a ringout game, but it'll be far fairer.
 
No Hilde Stages:

Tower of Remembrance ~ Degradation
Tower of Remembrance ~ Ancient Gate
Kunpaetku Shrine ~ Dream Remnants
Ostrheinsburg Castle ~ Twilight
Grand Labryrinth ~ Corridor of Suspended Time
Wolfkrone Monument
Phantom Pavilion ~ Seesaw

Up for debate:

Thesmophoros' Imperial Garden
Star Destroyer Docking Bay ~ Laser Gates
Kyurakudai Villa ~ Virgin Snow

I don't feel the up for debate levels are as bad as the previously mentioned levels myself and would be all for leaving them legal for Hilde. Stupid ringouts happen on Laser Gates for everyone. Virgin Snow is HUGE and the pillars save people more often than not, and The Imperial Garden is very big one way and a lot wider on the thinner part.
 
KDZaster said:
Last time I checked, scrubs aren't winning with Hilde.
Linkrkc, his first time playing a Hilde, beat her on theory alone.
Kid D. has never lost to a Hilde in tourney.

STD was knocked two and out by a Hilde player, Valei. So he's good.
I beat Valei with Asta, and badly with Cass.

She's so fucking broke.
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Link didnt win on theory alone, he had some damn good stages too. They played their winners finals entirely on the pirate ship, and he still lost a match to ringout. It can happen to anyone. I believe the majority of their grand finals was played on the fully-walled tower of rememberance, I still don't know why MJ wasnt stage selecting to get off of that one.
 
wow.....mo is actually voting yes. So sc vets are actually for this?? What does aris think?? I purposely play asty in this game because in my first couple of months of research for this game i told South Jersey that hilde would be a force!!! and here she is lol. With that said i think we are overreacting a bit here. We should give it significantly more time (at least until nationals is over) i think the real question should be now if we should UNBAN algol yoda and vader!!!! Guys i think we need to find a happy medium :p Tekken players never ban (i think thats bad in some cases) and we are wayyyyyy too quick to ban. With character banning i always bring up Jin in tekken 4. Jin onced placed all of the top 5 in an evo!!! That is ban worthy and they did nothing!!! So we cant wait as long as the tekken community to do something but we cant overreact before we have a national tournament. Also......how sure are we that namco isnt going to patch ALL year??
 
Fuzion said:
I believe the majority of their grand finals was played on the fully-walled tower of rememberance, I still don't know why MJ wasnt stage selecting to get off of that one.
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Cuz the man has a sliver of self respect.

Rigel has the right idea tho, simply banning the wall-less stages in which the doom combo can ring out clear across without a single hope of stopping it.

In regards to Hildes god tier shenanigans;

Walls seem to take the edge off, if you catch my drift ;)
 
ShinobiBrown said:
This. Honestly, if it's something you cannot deal with, don't play the game. If you play it and complain about it, you become an annoyance.
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My stance on it is pretty well summed up with this quote.

If you want to play this game competitively and you want to lay claim to being "the best," then I feel you should be able to handle all aspects that have been programmed into the game, whether or not you decide that they're "broken." There's already an anti-Hilde matchup built into the game-- he's called Yoda. But OH WAIT, he's BANNED.

I'll qualify the next statement by saying that I haven't personally tested this myself (I got home at about 3 am last night and am currently at work), but I have heard Hilde's A charges will whiff over Yoda, and many, if not all B charges are rendered ineffective as well.

I will concede that limiting Hilde's permitted play stages may help dampen her game to an extent, but on principle I don't feel comfortable getting on board with that solution. To me, if we're going to start limiting the stages that one character can play on, it just opens the door to more ridiculous partial/conditional bans to impose on other characters.

A ban is simply not the answer. On the contrary, I say ALLOW ALL CHARACTERS and let's first see what the community can come up with using all the tools available in the game before crying ban.

And honestly, how much time has really been spent, individually or collectively, studying anti-Hilde strategies? This whole "BAN HILDE" crusade is a recent development; The game's been out for approximately 6 months at this point, and the uproar is just coming up now? The community didn't even deem her to be a "threat" until someone capable stepped up and showed us otherwise. To me, there just hasn't been enough time elapsed or effort put into finding ways around her game.

As I posted earlier, Hilde is entirely beatable. Aris did it. There is videographic evidence. Unfortunately, Bobino's match with Ceirnian is not recorded, but there are plenty of people who bore witness to it.


If one character completely saps the enjoyment out of this game for you, then stop playing. It's that simple. No one is forcing you to be involved in this or any other fighting game community. (I mean this as a general "you," not only referring to Mr. BANHILDE.)
 
Utsuse said:
My stance on it is pretty well summed up with this quote.

If you want to play this game competitively and you want to lay claim to being "the best," then I feel you should be able to handle all aspects that have been programmed into the game, whether or not you decide that they're "broken." There's already an anti-Hilde matchup built into the game-- he's called Yoda. But OH WAIT, he's BANNED.

I'll qualify the next statement by saying that I haven't personally tested this myself (I got home at about 3 am last night and am currently at work), but I have heard Hilde's A charges will whiff over Yoda, and many, if not all B charges are rendered ineffective as well.

I will concede that limiting Hilde's permitted play stages may help dampen her game to an extent, but on principle I don't feel comfortable getting on board with that solution. To me, if we're going to start limiting the stages that one character can play on, it just opens the door to more ridiculous partial/conditional bans to impose on other characters.

A ban is simply not the answer. On the contrary, I say ALLOW ALL CHARACTERS and let's first see what the community can come up with using all the tools available in the game before crying ban.

And honestly, how much time has really been spent, individually or collectively, studying anti-Hilde strategies? This whole "BAN HILDE" crusade is a recent development; The game's been out for approximately 6 months at this point, and the uproar is just coming up now? The community didn't even deem her to be a "threat" until someone capable stepped up and showed us otherwise. To me, there just hasn't been enough time elapsed or effort put into finding ways around her game.

As I posted earlier, Hilde is entirely beatable. Aris did it. There is videographic evidence. Unfortunately, Bobino's match with Ceirnian is not recorded, but there are plenty of people who bore witness to it.


If one character completely saps the enjoyment out of this game for you, then stop playing. It's that simple. No one is forcing you to be involved in this or any other fighting game community. (I mean this as a general "you," not only referring to Mr. BANHILDE.)
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Yawn!
Don't tell people their opinions are worth it...and basically they should fuck off if they don't like it.

For what it's worth this is a community, if people have complaints we should address them. In SC3 we were simply divided, one side wanted to ban vc, the other didn't. Just hate all around...and of course nothing was resolved...people just did whatever and there were consequences.

Ban stages without any walls. Simple enough.

Everybody that saw Hilde's reign coming before the game was even released put your hands up.
 
Well, if you know Hilde...you know there is no viable anti hilde strat. Anything someone can come up with is only looked at as an obstacle to overcome for a hilde player. I did a bit of testing, and you can actually step C3A and C3B sword side up close but I would hardly call that a strat considering this only works up close and only if she releases without tracking step with holding guard. Her step is so good, you don't have to wait for a wiff or an opening, you can create the opportunity. Not for damage...for a win. By guessing right once. Defensively or Offensively. Jumping right...steping right...GI'ing right...ducking... they all = death. Tell me, how do you build strat around that? Everything is uphill. Tell your friends, tell your neighbors...

She's broken. Question is, do you care to play the game knowing this?
 
KingAce said:
For what it's worth this is a community, if people have complaints we should address them.
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double yawn. an uninformed opinion is worse that a random guess.

half the people that post here couldn't warble their way out of a full speed aerial kick and im pretty sure they could be convinced that talim is broke if they heard enough people say it
 
Okay, I've had more time to think about it, and I've come up with another reason why the Hilde banwagon bothers me so much.


People don't want Hilde in the game because it forces them to change up the way they play. In order to be successful in SC4, you have to have specific character knowledge of everyone you come up against. Sure, develop a canned, basic strategy-- it may be successful in varying degrees depending on who you come up against. But in order to be truly great at the game, you've got to put in the time and effort to know how to get around specific character gimmicks.

Instead of developing an anti-Yoda game, we banned him. Instead of dealing with Algol, we banned him. These are both characters that your typical baseline strategy won't cut it against. I'll still never understand why we're trying to lump Vader into that category, as there's NOTHING about him that makes him broken or forces a strategy overhaul.

I really feel that the more we restrict the game, the less enjoyable it becomes. As I have previously said, there just hasn't been enough effort put in to truly say that there's nothing we can do.

I agree, she needs to be nerfed, but until that time comes (if it does) I don't think another ban is the answer. It's the easy way out.
 
I can only think of banning Yoda and Vader since there might be a good deal of players who do not have access to one or the other (maybe they don't want to spend $5?) so it would be a completely new fight for them. In terms of how powerful they are, they definitely should not be banned. But the argument could also be that, any serious player who wants to compete at a high level would spend the $5 to get access to Yoda or Vader, considering that people would spend much more on food, travel, hotel, etc.

I don't remember, but was Heihachi, Link, Spawn, etc allowed in legitimate tournaments?
 
Pendragonsfall said:
I can only think of banning Yoda and Vader since there might be a good deal of players who do not have access to one or the other (maybe they don't want to spend $5?) so it would be a completely new fight for them. In terms of how powerful they are, they definitely should not be banned. But the argument could also be that, any serious player who wants to compete at a high level would spend the $5 to get access to Yoda or Vader, considering that people would spend much more on food, travel, hotel, etc.

I don't remember, but was Heihachi, Link, Spawn, etc allowed in legitimate tournaments?
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SC2's console exclusive characters were banned, because the only way to prepare for them was to own the corresponding systems and game. Not wanting to pay 5 bucks for a download, when you spend way more than that travelling to and entering a tourney in the first place, is a lame excuse to ban a character. Console exclusivity is no longer a factor with SC4.
 
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