1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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I think almost everyone agrees by now that Algol and Hilde > all



8/26/09 edit: super sneaky tier list to replace my old one

A: Hilde, Kilik, Amy, Voldo, Algol
B: Setsuka, X, Asta, Cervy, Lizard, Mitsu, Ivy, Yoshi, Sophie, Cass, Vader
C: Raph, NM, Sieg, Taki, Apprentice
D: Tira, Yun, Zas, Maxi, Rock, Talim, Mina, Yoda
 
*Stolen from Tidus' first post:

Tiamat Tier List

S: Hilde, Algol
A: Kilik, Amy, Voldo, Setsuka, X
B: Soph, Asta, Cervy, Lizard, Yoshi
C: Raph, NM, Sieg, Cass, Mitsu, Tira, Ivy, Yun, Taki, Apprentice
D: Zas, Maxi, Rock, Vader, Talim
E: Mina, Yoda

Foxbot Tier List

S: Hilde, Algol, Amy
A: Kilik, Voldo, Setsuka, Sophie
B: Cass, Asta, Cervy, Lizardman, Yoshi, Ivy, X
C: Raph, Sieg, Taki, Apprentice, Mitsu
D: NM, Yun, Maxi, Tira
E: Zas, Rock, Talim, Mina

Noface Tier list
S
*Hilde*, Voldo, Kilik, Algol
A+
Cassandra, Setsuka, Yoshimitsu, Amy
A
Sophie, Lizardman, Cervantes, Taki
B
Astaroth, Xianghua, Ivy, Siegfried, Mitsurugi, Nightmare, Apprentice
C
Raphael, Tira, Vader, Yun, Maxi, Talim
D
Rock, Seong Mina, Zasalamel

Short Bus
Yoda


@Nori: Please, give me reasons why Taki is potentially top tier. I'd love some specifics, including matchups with other top/high tier characters.
 
Does anyone else agree with Nori that Cervy should be that high? Apparently my Setsuka vs Cervy comparison where I showed that theoretical Setsuka > theoretical Cervy was ignored. Please advise if there is fallacy in my argument.

Copy and pasted from the previous thread:

from theory fighter perspective, setsuka > cervy, correct me if I'm wrong, I just started messing around with cervy recently.

Setsuka has better CF, I don't think I need to argue that.

Setsuka has better safety, I don't think I need to argue that either.

Setsuka has better ringout, I don't think I need to arge this one since Cervy has terrible RO.

Setsuka has better throw game: average 64 to 70 damage, 114 with wall. Cervy gets 70 only off of command throw and wakes.

Setuka has better post GI: between 70 and 90 damage, 120 to 140 with wall. Cervy gets iGDR or 4[A]?

Setsuka has better spacing: 4A creates space, safe. 1B:B creates space, safe, can 214214 backdash afterwards. Cervy has terrible stepping and iTP doesn't activate until the 15th frame or something.

Setsuka has better punishment from step: 70 to 90 damage depending on the move stepped, 120 to 140 with wall. Cervy gets 3B and iGDR combos for 60ish damage.

similar wake up, neither has exceptional lows.

similar damage, even with wall combos considered.

similar punishment, Cervy has an i15 punisher that does a little more damage, Setsuka has an i12 punisher that does a little less damage.

Setsuka has worse range punishment, only in terms of damage output, cervy gets 60 damage with iGDR and Setsuka gets 50+ with 33B. Setsuka 33B has more range than iGDR.
 
Tiamat said:
I think almost everyone agrees by now that Algol and Hilde > all
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Yeah, most people think Algol is the best, me included. I was in flash chat the other day, I won't name names, but there were a couple of people saying Algol wasn't, which.......yeah. Either way, I think the one thing EVERYBODY agrees on is Hilde/Voldo are top.

Eltoshan: If Cervantes hits you w/WS A, he gets one of the best mixups in the game. It punishes a lot of lows also. iGDR by itself makes him top tier, w/out question. It TJ like crazy, and it still TC. For arguments sake, even if it doesn't TC like it used to in 3, you won't find many people who don't think this move is fantastic.

Does Setsuka have a low that puts her in frame advantage? Cervantes 1k is one of the best lows in the game. It sets up 6K if they attack or move. If they stand there, command throw (w/a small break window). Also, he can do command throw from standing, which again, is great. 69 damage and puts them RIGHT at his feet w/him recovering first. Setsuka really doesn't give me a reason to duck.

2A+B on CH also guarantees WS A.

Post GI is not a valid argument. Everybody has Post GI options. You never base tiers off of Post GI. And again, Cervantes does not have terrible stepping. I step him w/him just as successfully as I did in part 2 and 3. I acknowledge she's a very good char, but I strongly feel Cervantes is better. Realistically, you would see more successful Cervantes players out there than Setsuka players. Neither char is easy, but as far as tournaments go, Cervantes has everything at his disposal where again, Setsuka is lacking good lows.

Dullyana: Taki has the fastest move in the game, for starters. That alone makes her upper mid. She can interrupt strings other chars can't. She has the ability to always stay on offense. She does great against the soul gauge. She's one of the few chars in the game who can go w/out throwing and win an entire match, not just rounds. If you've ever faced a very good pressure Taki, you really respect this char.

If Taki can get in (it's not easy, but since we do we base tiers off of ease of use?) she RAPES Cassandra. She does good against Cervantes. Well come to think of it, when she's up close........who's better?
 
Dullyanna said:
@Nori: Please, give me reasons why Taki is potentially top tier. I'd love some specifics, including matchups with other top/high tier characters.
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I'm assuming you missed my question. I can't blame you, since it was at the bottom of a repost.... or I'm wrong, and you're preparing an epic treatise on why Taki is possibly top tier.
 
A lot of taki's good pressure moves are high and can be duck / punished. I don't get why she should be considered that high, but then again I don't really care about the tierlist except for a select few characters.

[edit] Algol is one of those characters. I hear people saying how Algol is the best but then you don't even have anything backing you up except theory fighter. Try unbanning him for awhile, finding counters to his moves and getting use to his lows. Then come back and say he's in a tier of his own.
 
Ceirnian said:
A lot of taki's good pressure moves are high and can be duck / punished. I don't get why she should be considered that high, but then again I don't really care about the tierlist except for a select few characters.

[edit] Algol is one of those characters. I hear people saying how Algol is the best but then you don't even have anything backing you up except theory fighter. Try unbanning him for awhile, finding counters to his moves and getting use to his lows. Then come back and say he's in a tier of his own.
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I think he's the best, but I don't really agree on the ban. SC3 did a lot of damage and people are scared, so I understand why Algol was banned, but don't agree w/it

Dullyana: Read the end of my post w/Taki, I did reply to you. I had edited probably while you were posting. If you need more detail, I'll be happy to provide it.
 
Taki's issue is that her mixups offer relatively little reward for the risk involved, and there are concrete ways around them for certain characters. Also, her 2bA is relatively underwhelming, especially compared to Yoshi's iMCF. One is high, and leaves the character at -2 on hit, while the other TCs, and leaves the opponent in a crumple stun.

Edit: If you could give specific examples of why her SG + mixup game is above average (And if/how they work in tandem), that'd be lovely. PM them to me or put them in this thread, either way works.
 
Dullyanna said:
Taki's issue is that her mixups offer relatively little reward for the risk involved, and there are concrete ways around them for certain characters. Also, her 2bA is relatively underwhelming, especially compared to Yoshi's iMCF. One is high, and leaves the character at -2 on hit, while the other TCs, and leaves the opponent in a crumple stun.

Edit: If you could give specific examples of why her SG + mixup game is above average (And if/how they work in tandem), that'd be lovely. PM them to me or put them in this thread, either way works.
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Check your PMs in about 2 minutes. I'll send you some info
 
S: Hilde Algol
A: Amy Voldo Setsuka Kilik Cassandra Yoshi
B: Xianghua Cervantes Mitsurugi Sophitia Astaroth Siegfried
C: Lizardman Taki Ivy The apprentice Nightmare
D: Yun Raphael Maxi Tira (I had some difficulty deciding between D and E for Tira.)
E: Vader Rock Talim Zasalamel Mina
Waste of life: Yoda.
 
I just think Cervy is better than Setsuka and Asta against a Hilde since I feel like I get mixed up a lot more by Cervy than Setsuka, and Asta isn't as quick as Cervy on some moves... Some of the long-range Asta moves can be seen miles away like his axe swings .... Cervy is more deceptive I guess that's what I am trying to say... Given, I haven't fought as many Cervy as Asta.

Setsuka definitely seems a lot quicker in combat compare to a Cervy though.
 
DrHobo said:
S: Hilde Algol
A:Cassandra Yoshi
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......explain please. Yoshi's lows you can block on reaction and has almost no way to get in on somebody. Cassandra is linear as hell and not nearly as spam happy safe as she used to be. Sisters are for SURE not top tier.
 
Nori said:
Last thread was closed, probably due to 1k posts

Anyway, back to arguing:

1) Hilde
2) Cervantes
3) Voldo

For 4 and 5 I'm not entirely sure. It could be any of the following:

Kilik
Asta
Ivy
Taki
Setsuka
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nori, i understand you love cervy, but you're kidding yourself if you honestly think he's that high. same goes for asty and taki.
 
Rock is tier C imo. Sieg should be lower in everyone's list.

Nori.
Yoshi's lows are around i19. Say what u want about them, but that's faster than Cervy's. It depends on hwot he opponent uses them. You will eat WS A a LOT.
No way to get in? Yoshi has the ultimate get in move with 33BB+K and that TCs and tracks decently and does solid damage.
 
Nori said:
......explain please. Yoshi's lows you can block on reaction and has almost no way to get in on somebody. Cassandra is linear as hell and not nearly as spam happy safe as she used to be. Sisters are for SURE not top tier.
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yoshi's lows you can blow on reaction? i can block cervy's lows on reaction. technically every character in this game can be blocked low on reaction if you play against them enough.
 
tribaL said:
nori, i understand you love cervy, but you're kidding yourself if you honestly think he's that high. same goes for asty and taki.
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If I were the only person that thought so, then sure, I'm kidding myself. However, when at least 5 other top players agree w/me he's somewhere in top 5 here or there, then I'm obviously on the right track. The problem again is, how many people out there have gone against a Cervantes that knows what he's doing? That's like me having zero Hilde experience and saying she's not top tier. Have to keep an open mind

And I highly doubt you can block Cervante's 1k on reaction dude. Highly HIGHLY doubt it, no offense. Yoshi's FC3K, slow. DGF K, slow. Yoshi players have to be smart as hell to win now, it's not easy as it was when the game came out and nobody knew what was going on. Technically no, you can't block all lows on reaction. I'd LOVE to see somebody block Mitsu's 2K, B on reaction. Not anticipation, ACTUALLY seeing it and blocking. Nope, not happening dude
 
ok well i do take back all lows but i will definitely say most lows. if you think cervy's 1k is that amazing that it's notable i got news for you: +1 while in ducking isn't exactly the bee's knees.

honestly, i could give two shits what "top players" agree with. that, and getting endorsements from unknown people doesn't help your argument. "i have heard top japanese players say yoshi is near the top," notice how that doesn't magically make yoshi top tier? "top players in korea would put setsuka way above cervy, and above most characters," notice, again, how that doesn't change the situation? to be honest, those are actual opinions held by members of those communities, but i'm not whipping them out because doing so is stupid.

you think cervy is top tier, so you tell us why he is. using wsA and 1k ain't cutting the mustard either. you're going to either need some great examples or some sort of video proof. the latter doesn't exist because you said before "everyone sucks with cervy". sigh. ok.
 
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