1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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If Cervy's 1K hits, 6K is free if you move/attack. So yeah, Step G doesn't work, no. And hey, if the majority of people want to think Cervy isn't top, that's fine. I'm glad you at least admit you haven't seen a good Cervantes, so that opinion is pretty non existent since you can't comment on a char you haven't seen really played well.

I'll never convince EVERYBODY, nor am I trying, but hey, it doesn't effect me one way shape or form, I'll still continue to rep him and stay in top 5 w/him, it must be that i'm super awesome at this game. Here I thought the char was carrying me, boy was I wrong lol. You all can continue to dissect each frame, I'm telling you from experience what works in actual tournaments. TiT/Regionals/Nationals/Evo, people will see how good he is and jump on the bandwagon. I remember back in SC2 when Cervantes was "trash" until Nationals LOL

Eltoshan: Dude, ANYBODY can block Yoshi's FC 3K on reaction. Please go into practice mode, compare Mitsu's 2K, B to Yoshi's FC 3K, then come back and tell me it's the same speed. Hell Hajime and I were just talking on flashchat how it can be blocked and it IS blocked a lot.

Problem w/so many people is you depend on frame data WAAYYYY too much. It's pretty bad guys...
 
Nori said:
And I highly doubt you can block Cervante's 1k on reaction dude. Highly HIGHLY doubt it, no offense. Yoshi's FC3K, slow. DGF K, slow. Yoshi players have to be smart as hell to win now, it's not easy as it was when the game came out and nobody knew what was going on. Technically no, you can't block all lows on reaction. I'd LOVE to see somebody block Mitsu's 2K, B on reaction. Not anticipation, ACTUALLY seeing it and blocking. Nope, not happening dude
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I've blocked Cervy's 1K hundreds of times. Have been since SC 2.
Fact of the matter is Cervy's 1K IS SLOWER THAN YOSHI'S FC 3K.

Try this right, let the computer crouch guard right, and randomly mix FC 3K, with WS A. Tell me how much times you block it. IT IS i19. However the PLAYER does when they do it, decides how 'telegraphed' it is.

DGF K is blockable cuz DGF B is slower. It's not really a reflex thing, everybody simply knows that when u see DGF u duck.

When it comes to pokes Yoshi is top class.
iMCF
a:B+K
2A
2K
3K
AA
K
bA
He's easily one of the fastest characters in the game and also gives massive damage for CH.
His throws are all SOLID as hell too.
You're really shortchanging Yoshi
 
Nori said:
If Cervy's 1K hits, 6K is free if you move/attack. So yeah, Step G doesn't work, no.
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Nah you can step it man.

Step G doesn't completely own 1K mixups

you can just do

1K---> throw
1K---> dash 3B
1K---> dash 1K


Just adds to the mixup

Edit: actually i take that back...i could have sworn i was successful stepping after 1K but im having difficult recreating it now. maybe im on drugs o_0
 
Millionz said:
Nah you can step it man.

Step G doesn't completely own 1K mixups

you can just do

1K---> throw
1K---> dash 3B
1K---> dash 1K


Just adds to the mixup
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I have never had 1K, to 6K stepped or beaten unless it was a fast 2A or something.

hotnikklez: I can promise whoever I play is not gonna block Cervantes 1K on reaction, so if you've convinced yourself you can block it all the time, awesome. It's unrealistic, but hey, that's fine, no point in even TRYING to explain why 1K is good if you're supposedly blocking it on reaction. Yoshi is not better than Cervantes. Top 10 sure, but not top 5. Also, please read the whole thread before commenting on what I said about Yoshi;)
 
S: Hilde, Algol
A: Ivy, Taki, Amy, Setsuka, X
B: Yoshi, Sophie, Astaroth, Lizard, Voldo
C: Kilik, Raph, Sieg, Nightmare, Cervy, Cass, Mitsu, Apprentice
D: Vader, Rock, Talim, Tira, Yun, Maxi
E: Mina, Yoda

Yeah I rank Ivy higher and it's not my fanboyism, I generally find her SW mode amazing and she easily has the most damaging comboes. Notice I knock Kilik down a bit...I have no idea why he is considered to tier. He is REALLY easy to beat and all his natural strings are very predictable. Maybe it's the fact Ivy has an incredible game over him since his range doesn't do anything to her, and other characters struggle with it.

As for hilde and algol...i just went with the crowd. I have never seen a good algol or hilde to justify but I can see algol launching tons of slow bullets, teleporting and then diving in and I have been ROed by hilde which, yes, is fuckin ridiculous.
 
Omg.
This thread is a disaster.
Its definitely worse than the last one.
And ending...The last one was actually good.
Hmm...Im seeing some bait here, that everyone took obviously.
But then again arguing is fun for some (Great pass-time.)
But yeah...Disaster. lol.
 
Nori:
I never said i block it all the time, but you're making it sounds like 1K is IMPOSSIBLE to see. I have blocked it, and i'm sure MANY good players have blocked it, even more regular than i can. Convince myself?! not really. Strange that you haven't fathomed the thought of someone saying they CAN block 1K. Noone really blocks fast lows consistently i don't think. But you MUST remember, that it's blockable....and it's unsafe. This a big issue. Anticipation is a big deal in this game...even Mitsu's 2KB can be his own bane and that's even harder to block.
I never said Yoshi is better than Cervy...Cervy is in my top 5...but i just thought some of the stuff you said needed ammendments. I read the entire thread by the way..but you did not concede so i thought i'd post my 2 c...again :p
 
I am not really sure if want to involve myself in this debate. Being honest though I am fairly intrigued by these tier lists and i'm gonna throw my own 2-cents in.

To keep things simple I believe these are top 5 no question. My top five only caters to this game played at its highest levels and has nothing to do with everyone being scared of characters like Algol because they don't know how to fight him.

S-Tier:

Setsuka, Kilik, Hilde, Amy, Ivy (In no particular order)

Although if I were to put them in order currently without being absolutely confident I would say

S-Tier:

Setsuka, Kilik, Amy, Hilde, Ivy
 
so... if someone manages to use Rock Class D and beat Hilde Class S... it'll mean...

either the Hilde player suck... or the Rock player is godly?

-LAU
 
LAU said:
so... if someone manages to use Rock Class D and beat Hilde Class S... it'll mean...

either the Hilde player suck... or the Rock player is godly?

-LAU
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IMO I can't argue about Rock's placement in D being final but he is definitely without question on the lower end of the scale.

Also Hilde has some horrible matchups in this game. She can either utterly destroy almost everyone or fail miserably.

Rock is one of those characters that Hilde fails miserably against. So if u win u think about it. How and why did u beat your opponent? Was it just off of being all around solid in combination with the anti advantage or were u just flat out better than your opponent was etc.

Most people who rate Hilde this high haven't really studied her and alot of people forget that you have to consider anti character matchups.

Hilde has at least 4-5 matchups that are just horrible.
 
LAU said:
so... if someone manages to use Rock Class D and beat Hilde Class S... it'll mean...

either the Hilde player suck... or the Rock player is godly?

-LAU
Click to expand...

And that's why debating about tiers like this is pointless :)

Only proper way to do a tiers list is by match-up, like we did here, based on what WCMaxi did with SC1 and SC2 : http://www.soulcalibur.fr/forum/vie...&sid=ca3020fe8b486fe237f0e09f3e22913d&start=0


Keep in mind, i dont think our Ranking Project is the absolute truth, there's still a lot of tweaking to do, things to discover and share etc. But this method is the only right one to do a tiers list.
 
rock isn't bottom tier and hilde isn't top tier. he is low and she is high, but he is definitely not bottom and she is definitely not top.

i'll discuss more about cervy later, but i'm at work and have to keep things simple.
 
Saitoh said:
And that's why debating about tiers like this is pointless :)

Only proper way to do a tiers list is by match-up, like we did here, based on what WCMaxi did with SC1 and SC2 : http://www.soulcalibur.fr/forum/vie...&sid=ca3020fe8b486fe237f0e09f3e22913d&start=0


Keep in mind, i dont think our Ranking Project is the absolute truth, there's still a lot of tweaking to do, things to discover and share etc. But this method is the only right one to do a tiers list.
Click to expand...

I'd be really interesting in seeing that when it's done, though it would be nice if it was put in the traditional layout for those kind of things.
 
Saitoh said:
And that's why debating about tiers like this is pointless :)

Only proper way to do a tiers list is by match-up, like we did here, based on what WCMaxi did with SC1 and SC2 : http://www.soulcalibur.fr/forum/vie...&sid=ca3020fe8b486fe237f0e09f3e22913d&start=0


Keep in mind, i dont think our Ranking Project is the absolute truth, there's still a lot of tweaking to do, things to discover and share etc. But this method is the only right one to do a tiers list.
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Some of the stuff in that chart doesn't even make sense...

Hilde 5:5 against Asta and Rock?? You crazy? it's at least 4:6....
And 4:6 against Taki, Amy and Set??? They are 5:5 in my opinion.
Against Tira 5:5....? OTZ 6:4 at the very least with Hilde

I'd say there is a lot of Bias in that chart for Setsuka... 6:4 against Cass? I'd say 5:5

Ivy shouldn't get a 4:6 against Lizard... -_-''''

That chart isn't even THAT objective there are some obvious bias put in it...
 
My point is about the method to get Tiers done.
The game is still very young, we're fully aware a LOT of things can happen and change the Tiers etc etc. But again that's not my point here.

You cant do a Tier List like this, out the blue, saying character XXX is top because he got this and that. A match-up chart is what you need if you want to discuss this seriously, that's all :)
 
Saitoh said:
You cant do a Tier List like this, out the blue, saying character XXX is top because he got this and that. A match-up chart is what you need if you want to discuss this seriously, that's all :)
Click to expand...

We have a winnar.

Match-up charts and tourny data are the best way to go when determining tiers. Discussions like these get nowhere fast.
 
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