1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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WTF! Is Namco stupid or something? I don't get it. I don't support bans now even though Hilde is broke or pushing the boundaries of being broken but fuck that. With a combo like that if it ever comes to console this bitch should be insta-banned without question. No joking whatsoever thats just ridiculous and this time flaming from people like Ceirnian if it does happen should not matter in the slightest.

That shit is the definition of broke! That same combo does 73 at the moment so thats damn near half a jump. If this bitch does not get banned i'm picking her ass up as a main this time with the utmost dedication. I can't believe that shit.

Edit:

Just saw the rest of them on that same account its ridiculous!

C2BB~C3A~C2BB~C2AA = 86-Damage now what the fuck

Edit #2:

Is this game attempting to be T6 or something cause Nightmare's iagA wall combo is by far the dumbest shit I have ever seen! I cannot stop laughing.
 
Are you stupid or something? All damage in the game got upped from what reports have been, and she lost most of her ring out range. So instead of a huge chance to get rung out you take 25 more damage. boo fucking hoo (going by doom combo damage, since thats gone now).

Nightmare has always had iaga wall combos, just not like that and I doubt he's going to suddenly be high tier for it. Already starting the whining and the game isn't even out yet.
 
I just thought I would point out i'm the marter for no Hilde ban as i'm currently the only one supporting yall Hilde players and not attending future Koga's etc when the bans do fall in place.

However that shit is broke. I don't care which way a Hilde player tries to turn it around.

Chalk it up to whining as I don't care especially when i'm the one again supporting the current no Hilde ban. Let this community make the same mistake again. Which is why i don't care for ur opinion cause well ur Ceirnian.
 
Guys, lets just see and test the game first before talking about bans and stuff.

Just news and videos will help to see the possible new tier list for BD.
 
I see alot of lists with Raphael in the "mid tier"....can anyone give me 1 solid reason why he isn't low? This guy has fundamental weaknesses and holes in his offense that he cannot get around without serious awareness of how your opponent is playing. He does not have the insane damage, 50/50's, and oki that Amy has to make up for his ability to be stepped so easily.

If people insist on him being in the "mid tier", then he's the dead bottom of the mid tier, with enough cute gimmicks to somehow stay outta low...which I don't even agree with.
 
Raph is certainly not in the lowest tier level. He has good pokes/range/evasive moves/CF. He is pretty versatile in most matchups and can be played either aggressively or defensively with good results. He has a fair number of matchups where he has the advantage compared to the actual low tier characters. Gimmicks have nothing to do with it.
 
As far as matchups go, Raph vs the rest of the cast, he's low. Doesn't mean he can't win, but compared to what everybody else has and how hard he has to work, he's w/out question low.

SU: How's the tier ranking project coming along? Otherwise everybody is going to continue to think their char is great when it really isn't:(
 
I would argue that Raph is better than Tira, Yun, Zas, Maxi, Rock, Talim, Mina, Yoda and possibly a couple others

lower mid maybe but not low or bottom


for reference Kura's list on the other page has

B Class : Astaroth, Nightmare, Raphael, Xianghua, Zasalamel

C Class : Maxi, Seong Mi Na, Talim, Tira, Yun Seong

D Class : Rock
 
Tiamat said:
I would argue that Raph is better than Tira, Yun, Zas, Maxi, Rock, Talim, Mina, Yoda and possibly a couple others

lower mid maybe but not low or bottom


for reference Kura's list on the other page has

B Class : Astaroth, Nightmare, Raphael, Xianghua, Zasalamel

C Class : Maxi, Seong Mi Na, Talim, Tira, Yun Seong

D Class : Rock
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The fact that he has Astaroth and Raphael on the same tier list is just silly. When I saw that, I stopped looking.

Truthfully, everybody can break down what they feel about chars. However, neither you nor I (correct me if I'm wrong) use Raph in tournaments. SU had a great idea and contacted who he felt were the 2-3 top players of each char, have them do a matchup list, add the numbers up and that's our tier list. The debate of who's low, low mid, top tier, etc can be debated for eternity otherwise.
 
It is not that strange if you see what Kura can do to astaroth. I mean, he is GI'ing every 22_88B on _reaction_ and thats just for starters. Raphael , on the contrary is not half as bad as most people believe him to be.
 
Something-Unique said:
I just thought I would point out i'm the marter for no Hilde ban as i'm currently the only one supporting yall Hilde players and not attending future Koga's etc when the bans do fall in place.

However that shit is broke. I don't care which way a Hilde player tries to turn it around.

Chalk it up to whining as I don't care especially when i'm the one again supporting the current no Hilde ban. Let this community make the same mistake again. Which is why i don't care for ur opinion cause well ur Ceirnian.
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Just a thought about this SU, but does it really matter? I mean unless BD or the characters come to console in a patch does it really matter I mean? I don't think anyone going to have a BD tournament on PSP, but I digress...

My point is I don't think anyone should include anything from BD into tiers until (if) it is out on console, imo.
 
Hmmm...

You picked those "lesser then Raphael" characters wisely Tiamat....I think Rock isn't as low as people make him out to be, but other then that, yes, those characters are generally worse then Raphael....

Fine, "low tier" maybe not...but bottom of the mid tier for sure. I plan on using Raphael in all tournaments...but let me know when we got any Raphael's WINNING tournaments......that's something I doubt we'll ever see.
 
its impossible to change peoples minds about raph just drop it......
you show them he has alot of strong points but they just say step owns him, which is true if the raph doesnt use WS A and VE stance .
this may seem like a bold statement coming from me but:
JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN SHUT DOWN PREP DOESNT MEAN A DAMN THING.....
prep is lame most raphs see it that way... if ur whoring prep ur prolly playing raph wrong. VE is a much better asset with it being unstepable. and a throw mix up out side of 2A range.
raph also has great SS punish.

also he has an UNPUNISHABLE PLUS FRAME ON HIT LOW

his SG dmg and range when used in conjunction can be pretty scarey

he has 22B which is long range i20 that soul crushes in 10 with an evasive stance follow up , to discourage reprisal. it also is hit checkable and 60 DMG on hit. and VE A follow up to stop step

3B which is a i16 half screen poke soul crushes in 12

his A is also a solid poke its -2 on block

so meh think what you want

just my 2 cents on raph
 
Guys, you are still completely overlooking what people mean by saying Raph is "low tier".

We are trying to establish a tier chart based on matchups. Based on who has what tools to use, and a player at the highest level can do w/them. It's that simple. Every single player is going to come in and defend their char on why they don't suck or why they are top tier or whatever. This is going to go in circles again, it's pointless.

So to the Raph players who go to tournaments and actually do well w/him, post up a matchup chart vs everybody else. Raph has VERY few matchups he actually wins. Matchup charts, that's all that matters:)
 
The matchup thread is what we are going to go by. Something-Unique started a true tier chart right after Nationals, PMed the top players of their respective chars (maybe 2-3 of them), had them do a matchup chart and we are waiting on the results. That's the best, most fair way to rank the tiers. Not just "I can do this" and another person comes in saying "well, I can do this". Clearly, anybody can see we are going in circles in this thread unless this is done. I have no idea who he PMed for Raph to be honest but seeing as how there are almost zero consistent Raphs in tourneys, doesn't look too good for him.
 
I think Raph not doing well in tournies has more to do with lack of use (especially by really good players) compared to others rather than a reflection of how good the character actually is. Course there's no way to support that claim other than arguing about how good his moves and matchups are.
 
Tiamat said:
I think Raph not doing well in tournies has more to do with lack of use (especially by really good players) compared to others rather than a reflection of how good the character actually is. Course there's no way to support that claim other than arguing about how good his moves and matchups are.
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Think of Raph or any char people feel shouldn't be classified as "low mid" or whatever, as Omega and Zas. Most people thought Zas was one of the worst chars in the game until Omega went to Evo/Nats and wrecked shop w/him. So from there, he moved up to at least mid and I'm sure his matchup chart will be very interesting. Talim is still regarded as very low, regardless of how well Kura did at Nats. Right now, people saying Raph isn't low need to come up w/something that supports it, that's the bottom line. A raph player needs to step up and do well at a major for people to see what he can do. Right now, it just sounds good on paper and that's it.
 
No raph isnt bad, its just he is a little boring character to use. thats why I dont play him in tournament. Another important reason why people fail with raph is they are lazy, if you get VE B:B JF down 100% you will see he is pretty good. But if you miss it you lose rounds b/c of it. I will be maining raph soon, I will show you what he can do on video. Overall he can deal damage and pressure but he needs set up and adaptation to do so. Actual pay off him guessing correctly is good.
 
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