1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Cryptonist said:
I don't have much technical information regarding SCIV, nor I'm a very expert player, but here's a tier list that I've constructed based on my playing experience (and I think I've been playing it long enough, I don't think Maxi is a beast and Hilde is clunky anymore as I used to do), still it's not technically constructed so there may be some ponts you would disagree, because I'm still not a hardcore gamer-but anyway, here's a tier list coming straight from a very experienced casual player:

S: Hilde, Algol
A: Amy, Voldo, Mitsurugi, Cervantes, Yoshimitsu, Cassandra, Setsuka
B: Lizardman, Taki, Kilik, Astaroth, Nightmare, Siegfried
C: Ivy, Rock, Sophitia, The Apprentice, Raphael
D: Maxi, Yun-seong, Seong Mi-na, Tira, Zasalamel
E: Yoda, Talim, Darth Vader
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Try again.
 
Cryptonist said:
I don't have much technical information regarding SCIV, nor I'm a very expert player, but here's a tier list that I've constructed based on my playing experience (and I think I've been playing it long enough, I don't think Maxi is a beast and Hilde is clunky anymore as I used to do), still it's not technically constructed so there may be some ponts you would disagree, because I'm still not a hardcore gamer-but anyway, here's a tier list coming straight from a very experienced casual player:

S: Hilde, Algol
A: Amy, Voldo, Mitsurugi, Cervantes, Yoshimitsu, Cassandra, Setsuka
B: Lizardman, Taki, Kilik, Astaroth, Nightmare, Siegfried
C: Ivy, Rock, Sophitia, The Apprentice, Raphael
D: Maxi, Yun-seong, Seong Mi-na, Tira, Zasalamel
E: Yoda, Talim, Darth Vader
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Where's Xianghua?! Ivy and Rock in the same Tier?!
 
thugish_pond said:
lol pretty much all B's.
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also

i cant think of a hori that does good SG dmg in SC4

raphs WS A crushes in 15 thats as good as your gonna get in terms of horis crushing fast

and A+BA tracks near %100 hilde can only step it to one side

and maxi not in bottom tier?

LOL?
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darkfender said:
maining raph since the game went out

3B is unsafe
VE is punishable in every mixup if you evere manage to enter VE without being hit in the process.
remember that VE A is something fantastic on paper horrible in reality cause everyone has plenty of time ducking after the mid.
If you really block the second hit then you deserve to get the 50-50 throw/33KB trap.
VE B is steppable on the weak side if i do remember well.

1a is good
AB is great

What is worst 33KB sometimes miss the B O___o without a reason leaving you superunsafe
So for the first hit of A+BA (also true for the prep K but preps are really trash).

B is great (0 on hit -2 on block good range)
and the reason ppl still use WSB is cause of his soul gauge damage.

RAPH does not have any block crusher move -.-

The problems of raph is the low DMG, the lack of pressure on grounded enemies and the lack of general pressure game you just have to live in defence.
His best dmg string are so situational that are almost worthless.

Generally he has strong matchups but he lacks some tools.

just my opinion.
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3B is safe because of the threat of prep A and knock back

people like to complain about VE A but its NC so you just use it if they start ducking the VE throw attempt
also VE A CANT be stepped same with VE K

1A is awful its a linear low that can be stepped to both sides thinking 1A is good alone makes me doubt your opinion

amy cant even punish 33K:B because of the knock back so i dont know what your complaining about

WS B is great it has great range tracks to one side and has great knock back on hit and block

and "block crusher moves" in SC4 dont mean anything unless you are kilik or maxi

or you can back step for OTG opponents and make them have to get close to you again

his 22B string isn't situational at long range you should be using 22B alot
 
A moves that crush pretty well I can think of offhand would be lizardman 4A (about 13?) and maxi 4AB (about 10?) but both are rather slow high moves
 
I know Taki's 66A is good. Some think its safe cause of pushback, but we all know Taki and her wacky frames. I also think Amy/Elf's and Sophie's 66A might be good for SG. Cant think of anymore tho =/
 
lol voldo has freaking good 1As for soul crush .

BT 1A 10 for SC track both side,but people barely can block it :DD
1A 10 for SC as well, kinda linear only track a bit one side.


I think both mitsu,cas,sop,lizard 's slow 1As does decent soul gauge dmgs
 
my thoughts on the subject

S: Hilde
A: Algol, Amy, Voldo, Setsuka, Kilik, Ivy
B: Cassandra, Sophitia, Yoshimitsu, Mitsurugi, Astaroth, Darth Vader, Cervantes
C: Nightmare, Siegfried, Xianghua, Rock, Raphael, Yun-Seong
D: Zasalamel, Seong Mi-na, The Apprentice, Taki
E: Talim, Tira, Yoda, Maxi
F: Bonus Characters
 
I'm waiting on Something-Unique's data from all the other top players to post what he has so far. Everybody posting their own tier lists is useless, cause everybody is gonna have a different list
 
babalook said:
i disagree with all of them so far i know what SU's list is going to look like already
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No you don't. Cause he's the only one w/all the data from the other players. And it's not just his list, it's compiled of all the top players, their matchups, w/the math added up.
 
ya and i have pretty damn good idea of what its going to look like cause i saw all the matchup charts and i know the tounament placements
 
Bubbles said:
also

i cant think of a hori that does good SG dmg in SC4

raphs WS A crushes in 15 thats as good as your gonna get in terms of horis crushing fast

and A+BA tracks near %100 hilde can only step it to one side

and maxi not in bottom tier?

LOL?
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3B is safe because of the threat of prep A and knock back

people like to complain about VE A but its NC so you just use it if they start ducking the VE throw attempt
also VE A CANT be stepped same with VE K

1A is awful its a linear low that can be stepped to both sides thinking 1A is good alone makes me doubt your opinion

amy cant even punish 33K:B because of the knock back so i dont know what your complaining about

WS B is great it has great range tracks to one side and has great knock back on hit and block

and "block crusher moves" in SC4 dont mean anything unless you are kilik or maxi

or you can back step for OTG opponents and make them have to get close to you again

his 22B string isn't situational at long range you should be using 22B alot
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All explained :) i referred to an old frame list (new wiki changed some frame data)

wsa is i22
B is -4 on block etc

still i like 1a for his range it's not so easy to step
P.S. 33KB sometimes miss the B hit becoming unsafe...that is the problem like a+b a does for the first even at close range.
 
Asta's has nice SG A's

it's
Hilde, Algol, Amy, Kilik, Voldo, Ivy,
Setsuka, Astaroth, Mitsurugi, Yoshimitsu, Sisters, Xianghua,
Cervantes, DarthVader, Siegfried, Lizzy, Apprentice, Nightmare
Taki, Raphael, Yun Seong, Maxi, Zasalamel, Talim
Rock, Tira, Seong Mina, Yoda
 
piggy said:
Most of this is good, but I tend to disagree with things. 3B_ is situationally safe at -14(ish) or -2 in Prep, and good pushback, not much can punish well. Even using empty Prep (duck high) can help, as with VE. VE A isn't great, you are right, but VE is still useful, especially since raph's close lows aren't great, and VE throw is hard to break.

I completely disagree with your stance on his SG damage - 22B, 3B, 11B, A+BA, WS B, SEA B, and SEB B do great damage (not Voldo damage, but enough to matter).

Raph is solid, not great, but certainly not trash (except a couple match-ups).
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as i already said (i'd be happy to be wrong....in that case plz explain) 3B or 3 if blocked can be stepped (best on raph's left) and punished with B
Every single mixup suffers this reaction (doesn't even require good reflexes) just if not prepped it's safe otherwise gets punished (assuming an i16B or any i16 mid) that means 3B is quite trashy imho....luckily he has 44A that TC on block at least.

@bubbles i don't miss the B sometimes when it's blocked 33k collide and B whiffs even at close range so does a+ba on the first hit maybe just a problem in the console version dunno....
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Mitsu high tier? i thought it would better be rated mid could you explain why.
ty
 
darkfender said:
as i already said (i'd be happy to be wrong....in that case plz explain) 3B or 3 if blocked can be stepped (best on raph's left) and punished with B
Every single mixup suffers this reaction (doesn't even require good reflexes) just if not prepped it's safe otherwise gets punished (assuming an i16B or any i16 mid) that means 3B is quite trashy imho....luckily he has 44A that TC on block at least.

@bubbles i don't miss the B sometimes when it's blocked 33k collide and B whiffs even at close range so does a+ba on the first hit maybe just a problem in the console version dunno....
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Mitsu high tier? i thought it would better be rated mid could you explain why.
ty
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Yeah I realized long time ago how easily Raph can be stepped, and how it seriously hurts when it happens. Although I can't step aswell, in reality that is his biggest flaw...Just step him, wait and punish.

Mitsu is high, because of his damage, techtraps, SG damage, Stupid stances...and 2KB. His pretty freaking solid, and he is starting to place well in tournaments.
 
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