1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Getting back to the recent Raph discussion...I find myself agreeing with most of what Tiamat said. Raph does have a good deal of 50 - 50 or advantage matchups, though, he also has a couple of terrible terrible matchups (v Amy for instance). The fact that he has any winning matchups at all keeps him out of bottom tier, at least to start. He has agro tools, as well as spacy / defensive tools and a solid CF game (I even nailed a CF on the big screen at EVO, but that is a different story...). Speaking of Evo - both Hudathan and I played him there and did pretty well (dont' believe the Brackets) so there are certainly SOME results to support this (and there certainly would be more if I took this game seriously and didn't work 80 hours / wk and could travel).

I think Kura's Raph placement is pretty good, right in the middle of things...but hey, Raph has been underrated since SCII which just makes it more fun to win with him and be like "Oh Snap - you got dominated by Raph, you should retire"

Str8 up fo' shizzle word, like WOAH!
 
Rock has a major buff and i mean major. So much that he could be mid-upper mid tier in SC:BD. I will let someone else announce the buffs later though since he uses Rock as well. I had a number of people do some testing on the game on my PSP this weekend at Koga.

I would use Rock now!

Other info:

Nori since ur community oriented somewhat I am no longer attempting to finish this tier list up as I don't care for anything community related for this game any longer and because I feel its disrespectful to get rid of the info that the kind people who took the time out to send me there matchup lists i'm gonna send it to u if u would like to finish it up or anyone else who would like to do so.
 
Something-Unique said:
Nori since ur community oriented somewhat I am no longer attempting to finish this tier list up as I don't care for anything community related for this game any longer and because I feel its disrespectful to get rid of the info that the kind people who took the time out to send me there matchup lists i'm gonna send it to u if u would like to finish it up or anyone else who would like to do so.
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Sounds good. Send me what you have, plus the players of each char I need to contact to get their info.
 
Hi, sorry for the newbie question, I started playing with Taki long ago on SC4 on the 360, now I've got Broken Destiny for the PSP and wanted to get back with the game now that I can train everywhere, however I see that Taki is very low tier, should I start with a new main or is Taki any good at all in your opinion? How about Ivy, if Taki isn't worth the time, is Ivy really good enough overall?
 
oblivioner said:
Taki is very low tier, should I start with a new main or is Taki any good at all in your opinion?
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In my honest opinion all this whining about tierlists is bullshit, u should just pick a char that fits your style and groove and not care about tier lists, frame data, JF's or wat ever else ppl talk about in this thread.
I think most ppl just overthink these kind of things and just forget to play the game and have fun.
This is SC4 not SF4 where Sagat just Tiger Uppercuts everyone a new asshole.
 
mr_kuma said:
In my honest opinion all this whining about tierlists is bullshit, u should just pick a char that fits your style and groove and not care about tier lists, frame data, JF's or wat ever else ppl talk about in this thread.
I think most ppl just overthink these kind of things and just forget to play the game and have fun.
This is SC4 not SF4 where Sagat just Tiger Uppercuts everyone a new asshole.
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What are you talking about? You miss one move in front of Hilde, RO or 95 damage. You attack her the wrong way, C3A to RO. It's painfully easy to do also. This game has tiers, whether you choose to acknowledge them or not.

oblivioner: Honestly, BD is a brand new game, play whoever you like. There is a chance Taki got better and people just don't know yet. Nobody knows this game in or out, but my best guess is Ivy will be better.
 
Nori said:
You miss one move in front of Hilde, RO or 95 damage. This game has tiers, whether you choose to acknowledge them or not.
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If u f*ck up infront of any player that knows wtf to do with w/e char they picked at the time u can pretty much be shure their gonna rip you a new 1, granted its easier to do with some chars then others (hilde, algol *shivers*) but still, if your fighting at a lvl where u know wats quoted above then u should also know how to avoid it using the char of your choice.

Nori said:
This game has tiers, whether you choose to acknowledge them or not.
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It prolly does have tiers but i dont see no point in wasting time trying to figure out whose at the top and whose at the bottom in the end u should just pick ur favorite char and just run with it and see how far you'll get.
 
mr_kuma said:
It prolly does have tiers but i dont see no point in wasting time trying to figure out whose at the top and whose at the bottom in the end u should just pick ur favorite char and just run with it and see how far you'll get.
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Yeah, sure if you are a casual gamer who doesn't ever want to win a tournament, then sure, your logic applies. However, to those of us who like winning tournaments, tiers are important. You have to always know what you're up against, it's just simple logic. SC4 overall is pretty balanced, but if you don't believe in tiers......why post in the tier thread?
 
Yeah Nori said it best. Besides tiers being important the match-ups are a big deal. You can't play the same way against every character unless you're playing Hilde or Algol. Hence the need for the tier list. =)
 
oblivioner said:
Hi, sorry for the newbie question, I started playing with Taki long ago on SC4 on the 360, now I've got Broken Destiny for the PSP and wanted to get back with the game now that I can train everywhere, however I see that Taki is very low tier, should I start with a new main or is Taki any good at all in your opinion? How about Ivy, if Taki isn't worth the time, is Ivy really good enough overall?
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Look at it this way. Tier standing never stopped Omega in kicking ass with Zas or Kura do very well with Talim. People admired them more because of the skill it took to pull that off. At least tier discussion is good because it gives the player info on what she is up against.
 
Batousai said:
Yeah Nori said it best. Besides tiers being important the match-ups are a big deal. You can't play the same way against every character unless you're playing Hilde or Algol. Hence the need for the tier list. =)
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Algol certainly cannot play the same way against every character, matchups matter a lot for him and can require large adjustments to his gameplay
 
Bubbles said:
its impossible to change peoples minds about raph just drop it......
you show them he has alot of strong points but they just say step owns him, which is true if the raph doesnt use WS A and VE stance .
this may seem like a bold statement coming from me but:
JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN SHUT DOWN PREP DOESNT MEAN A DAMN THING.....
prep is lame most raphs see it that way... if ur whoring prep ur prolly playing raph wrong. VE is a much better asset with it being unstepable. and a throw mix up out side of 2A range.
raph also has great SS punish.

also he has an UNPUNISHABLE PLUS FRAME ON HIT LOW

his SG dmg and range when used in conjunction can be pretty scarey

he has 22B which is long range i20 that soul crushes in 10 with an evasive stance follow up , to discourage reprisal. it also is hit checkable and 60 DMG on hit. and VE A follow up to stop step

3B which is a i16 half screen poke soul crushes in 12

his A is also a solid poke its -2 on block

so meh think what you want

just my 2 cents on raph
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maining raph since the game went out

3B is unsafe
VE is punishable in every mixup if you evere manage to enter VE without being hit in the process.
remember that VE A is something fantastic on paper horrible in reality cause everyone has plenty of time ducking after the mid.
If you really block the second hit then you deserve to get the 50-50 throw/33KB trap.
VE B is steppable on the weak side if i do remember well.

1a is good
AB is great

What is worst 33KB sometimes miss the B O___o without a reason leaving you superunsafe
So for the first hit of A+BA (also true for the prep K but preps are really trash).

B is great (0 on hit -2 on block good range)
and the reason ppl still use WSB is cause of his soul gauge damage.

RAPH does not have any block crusher move -.-

The problems of raph is the low DMG, the lack of pressure on grounded enemies and the lack of general pressure game you just have to live in defence.
His best dmg string are so situational that are almost worthless.

Generally he has strong matchups but he lacks some tools.

just my opinion.
 
Cabbie said:
Look at it this way. Tier standing never stopped Omega in kicking ass with Zas or Kura do very well with Talim. People admired them more because of the skill it took to pull that off. At least tier discussion is good because it gives the player info on what she is up against.
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Wow, are there videos of those matches?
 
darkfender said:
maining raph since the game went out

3B is unsafe
VE is punishable in every mixup if you evere manage to enter VE without being hit in the process.
remember that VE A is something fantastic on paper horrible in reality cause everyone has plenty of time ducking after the mid.
If you really block the second hit then you deserve to get the 50-50 throw/33KB trap.
VE B is steppable on the weak side if i do remember well.

1a is good
AB is great

What is worst 33KB sometimes miss the B O___o without a reason leaving you superunsafe
So for the first hit of A+BA (also true for the prep K but preps are really trash).

B is great (0 on hit -2 on block good range)
and the reason ppl still use WSB is cause of his soul gauge damage.

RAPH does not have any block crusher move -.-

The problems of raph is the low DMG, the lack of pressure on grounded enemies and the lack of general pressure game you just have to live in defence.
His best dmg string are so situational that are almost worthless.

Generally he has strong matchups but he lacks some tools.

just my opinion.
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Most of this is good, but I tend to disagree with things. 3B_ is situationally safe at -14(ish) or -2 in Prep, and good pushback, not much can punish well. Even using empty Prep (duck high) can help, as with VE. VE A isn't great, you are right, but VE is still useful, especially since raph's close lows aren't great, and VE throw is hard to break.

I completely disagree with your stance on his SG damage - 22B, 3B, 11B, A+BA, WS B, SEA B, and SEB B do great damage (not Voldo damage, but enough to matter).

Raph is solid, not great, but certainly not trash (except a couple match-ups).
 
I don't have much technical information regarding SCIV, nor I'm a very expert player, but here's a tier list that I've constructed based on my playing experience (and I think I've been playing it long enough, I don't think Maxi is a beast and Hilde is clunky anymore as I used to do), still it's not technically constructed so there may be some ponts you would disagree, because I'm still not a hardcore gamer-but anyway, here's a tier list coming straight from a very experienced casual player:

S: Hilde, Algol
A: Amy, Voldo, Mitsurugi, Cervantes, Yoshimitsu, Cassandra, Setsuka
B: Lizardman, Taki, Kilik, Astaroth, Nightmare, Siegfried, Xianghua
C: Ivy, Rock, Sophitia, The Apprentice, Raphael
D: Maxi, Yun-seong, Seong Mi-na, Tira, Zasalamel
E: Yoda, Talim, Darth Vader
 
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