1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Rock still has 6K, 4KA, 3K, and FC3K still works (though slower). Rock still has a hard time with Kilik, but once he gets going, there really isn't any character that has an answer. Just mash and hope.

As for mid kicks... MINA! She is not garbage. And I do not consider Mina that far from Kilik either. Again, Kilik is good, but experience shows Kilik players get lazy and predictable.

Also, can't you step the Dance?
 
You can GI between and punish in every part of Asura on block.

But Mina is far away from Kilik Draco.

She doesn't have half stage ROs, the throw game, the safe game and the frame trap game of Kilik.

I agree that she is ok as her damage output is extremely high on oki and that keeps her competitive, but she's nowhere near Kilik's league.
 
D_Matt_Ma said:
Rock still has 6K, 4KA, 3K, and FC3K still works (though slower). Rock still has a hard time with Kilik, but once he gets going, there really isn't any character that has an answer. Just mash and hope.

As for mid kicks... MINA! She is not garbage. And I do not consider Mina that far from Kilik either. Again, Kilik is good, but experience shows Kilik players get lazy and predictable.

Also, can't you step the Dance?
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You can step it to your right (I think). All I know for sure is that it tracks like mad to one side, and doesn't cover the other at all.
 
GynormousFish said:
Zasalamel? Low? You've got to be kidding me.
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Zas really has to be low. His throws and low moves are crap, he's very unsafe, his "powerful" moves are all slow, his combo damage is low, his step killers suck on block, he has virtually no evasive moves or auto GIs of any kind, and probably some other problems I'm forgetting right now (crappy okizeme?)

Only things he has going for him are the best reverse RO in the game, good CF damage, having 4B+K and 6B+K cause those moves are great. IMO these good things aren't enough to pull him out of low tier though.


If you want me to elaborate I can do that.
 
Tiamat said:
Zas really has to be low. His throws and low moves are crap, he's very unsafe, his "powerful" moves are all slow, his combo damage is low, his step killers suck on block, he has virtually no evasive moves or auto GIs of any kind, and probably some other problems I'm forgetting right now (crappy okizeme?)

Only things he has going for him are the best reverse RO in the game, good CF damage, having 4B+K and 6B+K cause those moves are great. IMO these good things aren't enough to pull him out of low tier though.


If you want me to elaborate I can do that.
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Yeah, I know, I just hate to admit it :(. I love Zasalamel. Still think he should be like bottom mid or something though, but I guess that's just me.
 
the problem is that not everyone can be in low mid...or else that is like half the characters lol. somebody has to be low tier, even if they aren't necessarily THAT bad
 
Here is my tier list... in alphabetical order by tier.

  • GOD: Voldo
  • TOP: Amy, Cassandra, Kilik, Siegfried, Xianghua, Yoshimitsu
  • UMID: Cervantes, Hilde, Lizardman, Mitsurugi, Setsuka, Taki
  • MID: Astaroth, Ivy, Maxi, Nightmare, Sophitia, Zasalamel
  • LMID: Raphael, Rock, Seong Mi-Na, Yun-seong
  • LOW: Talim, Tira
NOTES

Voldo: Obviously, I think Voldo is broke. He's way too safe, has too much priority, has long range, speed and damage; the entire game is skewed in his favor.

Siegfried: He's definately top, his mixup game is solid.

Sophitia: She just doesn't have it in this game anymore. Her sister has been given all the perks.

Zasalamel: He's definately not low. People are so used to him sucking in the previous game that few have seen how he actually works. He's not the best, but he's got the tools.

Rock: I still don't see what makes Rock as bad as everyone says he is. Sure, everything he does is a 50/50 break; but aren't 50/50s the whole essence of a mixup? Sure, most characters cant be broken in the middle of their combos, but when you guess right on a Rock mixup, unlike other characters, you can't punish it!

Talim: She's just the worst character in the game, no doubt in my mind at all. She's bad. Even though her movelist is better than it was in SC3, the disparity of the tiers in this game actually makes her a worse character (in relation to the rest of the cast).
 
Jaxel said:
Here is my tier list... in alphabetical order by tier.

  • GOD: Voldo
  • TOP: Amy, Cassandra, Kilik, Siegfried, Xianghua, Yoshimitsu
  • UMID: Cervantes, Hilde, Lizardman, Mitsurugi, Setsuka, Taki
  • MID: Astaroth, Ivy, Maxi, Nightmare, Sophitia, Zasalamel
  • LMID: Raphael, Rock, Seong Mi-Na, Yun-seong
  • LOW: Talim, Tira
NOTES

Voldo: Obviously, I think Voldo is broke. He's way too safe, has too much priority, has long range, speed and damage; the entire game is skewed in his favor.

Siegfried: He's definately top, his mixup game is solid.

Sophitia: She just doesn't have it in this game anymore. Her sister has been given all the perks.

Zasalamel: He's definately not low. People are so used to him sucking in the previous game that few have seen how he actually works. He's not the best, but he's got the tools.

Rock: I still don't see what makes Rock as bad as everyone says he is. Sure, everything he does is a 50/50 break; but aren't 50/50s the whole essence of a mixup? Sure, most characters cant be broken in the middle of their combos, but when you guess right on a Rock mixup, unlike other characters, you can't punish it!

Talim: She's just the worst character in the game, no doubt in my mind at all. She's bad. Even though her movelist is better than it was in SC3, the disparity of the tiers in this game actually makes her a worse character (in relation to the rest of the cast).
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I would have to agree with everything except Lizardman. In my opinion he looks like he belongs in the lowest tier. His whole Crawling Stance can be crushed by a simple 3 step (not 8 way run). His low sweep into stance can be blocked on reaction.
 
Jaxel said:
Here is my tier list... in alphabetical order by tier.

Zasalamel: He's definately not low. People are so used to him sucking in the previous game that few have seen how he actually works. He's not the best, but he's got the tools.
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Are you for real? Zas was pretty decent in SC3, and also in AE. Right now he's a bum in SC4 though.


Also Sieg cannot be high tier when he's so unsafe and has such crappy okizeme...he's somewhere in mid tier. Setsuka and Hilde CERTAINLY above sieg, they are probably the best two characters in the game right now.



About Lizardman, he is NO WAY low tier with such safe, braindead pokes and anti step ability. His only weakness is his mixup range, though if you're close his mixup is dangerous because of his strong throw mixups.
 
Something-Unique said:
I would have to agree with everything except Lizardman. In my opinion he looks like he belongs in the lowest tier. His whole Crawling Stance can be crushed by a simple 3 step (not 8 way run). His low sweep into stance can be blocked on reaction.
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Lolwut? Have you just been playing LC spammers online?
 
Jaxel said:
Here is my tier list... in alphabetical order by tier.

  • GOD: Voldo
  • TOP: Amy, Cassandra, Kilik, Siegfried, Xianghua, Yoshimitsu
  • UMID: Cervantes, Hilde, Lizardman, Mitsurugi, Setsuka, Taki
  • MID: Astaroth, Ivy, Maxi, Nightmare, Sophitia, Zasalamel
  • LMID: Raphael, Rock, Seong Mi-Na, Yun-seong
  • LOW: Talim, Tira
NOTES

Voldo: Obviously, I think Voldo is broke. He's way too safe, has too much priority, has long range, speed and damage; the entire game is skewed in his favor.

Siegfried: He's definately top, his mixup game is solid.

Sophitia: She just doesn't have it in this game anymore. Her sister has been given all the perks.

Zasalamel: He's definately not low. People are so used to him sucking in the previous game that few have seen how he actually works. He's not the best, but he's got the tools.

Rock: I still don't see what makes Rock as bad as everyone says he is. Sure, everything he does is a 50/50 break; but aren't 50/50s the whole essence of a mixup? Sure, most characters cant be broken in the middle of their combos, but when you guess right on a Rock mixup, unlike other characters, you can't punish it!

Talim: She's just the worst character in the game, no doubt in my mind at all. She's bad. Even though her movelist is better than it was in SC3, the disparity of the tiers in this game actually makes her a worse character (in relation to the rest of the cast).
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I can't see how Sophitia can fit anything else than Top.

She has the best punisher in the game, great damage (44B goes under attacks, is safe and does over 80 damage on CH, ~70 normal hit, CH 44A (~90 dmg CH), 66B, left side throw, CH 66B+K-combo for over 100 damage), some good mixup (for example double 236236 followup. Noone will ever duck a throw when threatened to get hit by 236236B:4) and great throw-game (66A+G small break-window, left throw). She has a low that's safe on block and + on hit (11A) which is somewhat rare in Soul Calibur.

Overall, she's very safe with great damage, great step and throw-game. Nowhere near mid.
 
Nah, her throw game sucks. It's somewhat better than characters who don't have any command throws, but hers mostly do mediocre to shit damage (Just look at her back and right side throw). That said, she still needs them for her mixup. I use her, but I ain't gonna argue whether she's among the best or just below them.
 
[Haha Joke Post] In my honest opinion, I think SC4 is an extremely balanced game, and it all depends on skill level. Any two people of the same skill level playing with any character should be able to win vs any other character.








































.. Except for Rock. [/Haha Joke Post]
 
I agree, if anyone wins with Rock, it's because the character did all the work and the player does not deserve the victory.
 
Jaxel said:
Talim: She's just the worst character in the game, no doubt in my mind at all. She's bad. Even though her movelist is better than it was in SC3, the disparity of the tiers in this game actually makes her a worse character (in relation to the rest of the cast).
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You fail!! I think Zas is far worse than Talim. Granted she does suck I think Zas is a character that just sucks more.

Zas has almost nothing in his favor. He is weak, unsafe, pathetic range for his weapon, and he is relatively slow. Not to mention Talim has options, now they may suck but they are options. Let me put this another way if he didn't have 4B+K and 6B+K I don't think he could even really compete with most characters. Zas has one thing really going for him, and that is his reverse RO game. Zas doesn't even belong in bottom-mid he should be right at the bottom beside Talim.
 
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