So, are you saying she's top tier because of this "easy to access/use" whiff punisher of hers? The main problem I'm thinking about this is, it's really hard to make people whiff on high-level of play and the "getting-there" part for charging the moves.
1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)
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So, are you saying she's top tier because of this "easy to access/use" whiff punisher of hers? The main problem I'm thinking about this is, it's really hard to make people whiff on high-level of play and the "getting-there" part for charging the moves.
Ruko
[09] Warrior
Most of Hilde's B attacks are pretty crappy so its hard not to have charged b's but the problem is aside from 6A+K her next best fast attack is 4B+K which IMO is far better than 6A+K even though its slower its probably not safe either but still IMO its a better move overall.
I still lack an understanding frame data so i don't understand why C3B is safe on block if its -8.
I dont know but for some reason when i look at Hilde's moves, She wants to use A attacks, she wants to charge A attacks but her B attacks are generally just there to be there and aside from a select few they are useless otherwise.
I still lack an understanding frame data so i don't understand why C3B is safe on block if its -8.
I dont know but for some reason when i look at Hilde's moves, She wants to use A attacks, she wants to charge A attacks but her B attacks are generally just there to be there and aside from a select few they are useless otherwise.
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
Cirex
[09] Warrior
There are no 8 frames moves, so you got enough time to guard. Trying to attack after it it's a suicide though.
I tend to use charged As more often than charged Bs, but I really got to change that mindset, because at close range, only a few moves with B are useful.
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
Hilde is solid.
Very safe all around, good frames on hit, solide pokegame, good ring out game, decent step tracking and soul gauge damage as well as a number of moves with evade properties. What she lacks is worthwhile damage and good punishers, her throwrange is also pretty sub-par. With just that you could consider her lower-mid.
Thats when her charges come into play. A charges provide her with great anti-step. Horizontal mids/highs, extremely good on block, auto GI and TC on the later levels. Using plain lvl1 is already good enough, so Hilde having to use her A attacks often is not really an argument here. Hildes spear game sucks, so she can charge B all the time without any problems. Its easy as pie to have C3 B or FC C3 B ready 5-6 times per round and you only really need to land it once and its over (and then you could also use C2 Bs and things dont look much better as far as the ring out threat is concerned). You dont even have to use it as a whiffpunisher (although that is its main purpose). You can use it post GI, as anti-step (yeah, C3 B actually tracks fairly well) or even against highs, because it TCs, too.
The only reason I dont place Hilde higher than top of mid is the fact that you cant spam her charges, but even so access to them is easy enough to make her a serious threat.
Very safe all around, good frames on hit, solide pokegame, good ring out game, decent step tracking and soul gauge damage as well as a number of moves with evade properties. What she lacks is worthwhile damage and good punishers, her throwrange is also pretty sub-par. With just that you could consider her lower-mid.
Thats when her charges come into play. A charges provide her with great anti-step. Horizontal mids/highs, extremely good on block, auto GI and TC on the later levels. Using plain lvl1 is already good enough, so Hilde having to use her A attacks often is not really an argument here. Hildes spear game sucks, so she can charge B all the time without any problems. Its easy as pie to have C3 B or FC C3 B ready 5-6 times per round and you only really need to land it once and its over (and then you could also use C2 Bs and things dont look much better as far as the ring out threat is concerned). You dont even have to use it as a whiffpunisher (although that is its main purpose). You can use it post GI, as anti-step (yeah, C3 B actually tracks fairly well) or even against highs, because it TCs, too.
The only reason I dont place Hilde higher than top of mid is the fact that you cant spam her charges, but even so access to them is easy enough to make her a serious threat.
SkatanMilla
[08] Mercenary
FacJoe: C2 and C3 A on block are great ways to make them whiff because you've got the upper hand in terms of options and movement after that, making someone whiff on high level isn't as difficult as people make it seem. Look at Nuki's Chun in 3s, he's playing top japanese players and making them whiff on a daily basis, that game has been out for almost 10 years and people still whiff.
Cirex: I try to have B charged at all times, I charge A as soon as I get the chance which happens very often during a match.
Sacharja: Don't forget that FC C2 B, C3 B and FC C3 A can all be used when you expect the opponent to do something, anything at all that isn't blocking. And after a just impact C3 B is unblockable.
Cirex: I try to have B charged at all times, I charge A as soon as I get the chance which happens very often during a match.
Sacharja: Don't forget that FC C2 B, C3 B and FC C3 A can all be used when you expect the opponent to do something, anything at all that isn't blocking. And after a just impact C3 B is unblockable.
BrewtusBibulus
Get your eSports on!
Ok Kimosabae I completely agree with you but there is one thing your overlooking. Soul Gauge pressure tactics involve in most cases taking a situation where you could use a B,B to frame trap and using something slower to damage the gauge when the average person goes to guard at disadvantage. This game at a high level is going to involve ignoring possible frame traps because people use non frame trap options to damage your gauge and ignoring this aspect will get you stomped... if you dont believe that you should have seen the old schoolers cry the first time I played them with sophie... they all resorted to guard instead of a more active and/or dynamic defense and were stubborn to the point of not attacking at disadvantage and I was getting almost as many CF's as KO.
This defense in this game is more then just guarding... its knowing where to attack at disadvantage and knowing when to GI and step. You have to use all the tools at hand to really put up a formidable defense and not taking this into consideration in "theory fighting" is a gross miscalculation
I dont know how nobody pointed this out yet but hilde 6B,B,B tracks like whoa
This defense in this game is more then just guarding... its knowing where to attack at disadvantage and knowing when to GI and step. You have to use all the tools at hand to really put up a formidable defense and not taking this into consideration in "theory fighting" is a gross miscalculation
I dont know how nobody pointed this out yet but hilde 6B,B,B tracks like whoa
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
Only the 3rd hit does.
BlackDragon37
[12] Conqueror
6BBB doesn't track unless the opponent is attacking.
ChaCha
[10] Knight
Then you clearly don't read very well. My tier list is loisted about 86 times in the beggining pages of this thread.
Glad to see some discussion on Cervy, perhaps after a few tournies he will skyrocket.
But I'm tellin the truth when I say Hilde is a lost cause, her charges force her to do certain things, and she doesn't have enough tools on the fly to get out of trouble without a lengthy charge, win a major(or do very well in one) and maybe I'd say she's worth a real second look.
cha cha
Wait, let me get this straight. Just answer yes or no to these questions and I'm all set.
1. You say: "Making someone whiff on high level isn't really that hard on SC" - You're sure about this?
2. Because of Hilde's combos off her charged moves, she should be top or if not, near top tier simply because if you whiff twice against her = Baibai. - Yes or no?
Thanks.
KuroiKaze
[08] Mercenary
ChaCha's list is my fav so far but I have some questions.
If you look back a few posts you'll see I asked a series of questions rather than make my own tier list. I was wondering if ChaCha would like to answer them.
I was very curious how Sieg got so high. I "mained" NM back in SC2 and I don't feel SCIV Sieg is as good.
If you look back a few posts you'll see I asked a series of questions rather than make my own tier list. I was wondering if ChaCha would like to answer them.
I was very curious how Sieg got so high. I "mained" NM back in SC2 and I don't feel SCIV Sieg is as good.
KingAce
HERMITISM
look at that bastard AMY
She's a beast she's a dog, she's a motherfuckin' problem
Well I see what Nori's talking about, shit she reminds of the old X.
She's a beast she's a dog, she's a motherfuckin' problem
Well I see what Nori's talking about, shit she reminds of the old X.
Kimosabae
[09] Warrior
Bilbus:
You bring up somewhat of a good point and I will freely admit my exploitation and general knowledge of the Soul Gauge is limited -- but I highly doubt I'm alone in that boat, as the game is just too new.
Also, just because I stated as people's knowledge expands they will know when not to attack Cervy, it doesn't necessarily follow they'll be blocking passively. As you've pointed out, there's options such as Step and GI (though both are disproportionately risky in this game IMO) and of course, punishing where applicable.
While you've raised a great point of discussion, I fail to see how it relates specifically to me being off in my opinion regarding Cervy holding a Top Tier position in SC4, hence the "somewhat" descriptive. What am I "overlooking" regarding Cervy's CF game that could solidify him as Top? I say he still pales in comparison in that regard to the likes of Amy and Sophie...all because of numbers.
Hopefully, you understand where I'm coming from, as you stated you agreed with me, but addressed me, specifically, with a rail regarding CFs which you never correlated to Cervy or my argument in particular. Just seems like you could have addressed it to everyone as it is good advice.
-SynikaL
You bring up somewhat of a good point and I will freely admit my exploitation and general knowledge of the Soul Gauge is limited -- but I highly doubt I'm alone in that boat, as the game is just too new.
Also, just because I stated as people's knowledge expands they will know when not to attack Cervy, it doesn't necessarily follow they'll be blocking passively. As you've pointed out, there's options such as Step and GI (though both are disproportionately risky in this game IMO) and of course, punishing where applicable.
While you've raised a great point of discussion, I fail to see how it relates specifically to me being off in my opinion regarding Cervy holding a Top Tier position in SC4, hence the "somewhat" descriptive. What am I "overlooking" regarding Cervy's CF game that could solidify him as Top? I say he still pales in comparison in that regard to the likes of Amy and Sophie...all because of numbers.
Hopefully, you understand where I'm coming from, as you stated you agreed with me, but addressed me, specifically, with a rail regarding CFs which you never correlated to Cervy or my argument in particular. Just seems like you could have addressed it to everyone as it is good advice.
-SynikaL
The Landslide
[13] Hero
Hillarious
I see it very well. However, the main reason he should be top tier is simple. HE USED TO BE THE BOSS!! How can you tell the former boss he ain't top tier??
Windstar
[13] Hero
There's a lot I want to comment about Hilde, but, I'll start with this one.
Yeah, Hilde can punish a whiff. If she's anticipating a whiffed attack, she can punish with C3 B, B+K, 4A+B (simplest combo and still does quite a bit of damage). Heck, she even punish on blocked lows with FC C3 AKB, B+K, 4A+B. And if you've got good timing you can do all sorts of charged combos that hit for slightly more damage with tons of ring out power on small stages.
No, C3 B cannot beat any attack. It's fast, but not that fast. Same with FC C3 A. The only ones fast enough to beat attacks is FC C1 BB and C3 A. Even C2 AA can get stomped.
C3 B tracks pretty well. In fact, it covers C3 A's weakness in step (in that, it can be stepped, but probably not on reaction).
Hilde can go counter hit fishing like X and Yoshi can with 6B and series. Since 6BBB is a natural combo, and has great range, it works really well. Plus its safe. It's an honest to goodness, very nice poke that gives Hilde a lot of baiting and time for charged attacks. Heck, Hilde's basic strategy revolves around 6B series and C3 A. But there's a problem there. She doesn't have a whole lot else to work with at that distance. Hilde's BB puts you at negative frames on hit. 66B has great range (very phantom like), but it's linear as can be. 44B is really long, but doesn't really lead into anything. 11B is another launcher and can follow up with a charged A. But it's slow and linear. And 33B... well I haven't found much use for it yet.
The point of all the negatives on hit with her B series of stabs is really to force the target to go after Hilde so can counter with charged As. It's really there for set ups for charged As, even Bs. Issue comes up with you block Hilde's BB and she eats a free launcher from Yoshi or Mina (not sure who else can launch at that distance), 236Bs from Sisters. Then there's the problem of being stuck to using 6B series and 66B and eating a GI (granted, very few can really do anything post GI at that range, unless you parry then...). Basically, she needs a stronger strategy at mid-range and her B series of moves doesn't give it to her.
Charges don't take forever to charge. If you buffer an A charge in after 6BBB, you'll have a C2 AA ready to go afterwords. Heck, you can even get a FC C1 BB out of a blocked 2A. It's the application and set up that's the issue. Hilde just doesn't seem fast enough on most of her normals to really set up her charges. Sacharja pretty much nails it. She's definitely lower-mid. But it can change as we discover new and with more play with her.
As for who could be a better punisher or as good as Cervantes... Cassandra, JF 236, 3B, 236:B, 236:B, 236:B, 236:B. Probably could fit 4BB:A somewhere in there as well.
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
You cant punish blocked lows with FC C3 AKB, because its NCC not NC.
6BBB is also only NCC. Revolving your game around 6BBB with anything will only get you killed.
Also I said shes mid with charges and lower mid without.
6BBB is also only NCC. Revolving your game around 6BBB with anything will only get you killed.
Also I said shes mid with charges and lower mid without.
Ruko
[09] Warrior
Thanks, I thought for some reason that - on block added to the recovery frames of the move.
I dont have much to contribute since i dont really know anything. I suppose i agree that she's mid to low tier however i'd really like to see what the japanese community thinks about her, and what they have come up with for her so far.
Random thought... How good are her K's in comparison to B's and A's?
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
Takis 2b:A is i8. Some stance moves might be close as well, but thats not relevant for punishing.
Hildes Ks are solid. Have the same damage problem as her As, but are also decently fast and have solid frames on hit and block.
Hildes Ks are solid. Have the same damage problem as her As, but are also decently fast and have solid frames on hit and block.
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