1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Plume,

Just read my response from your old Setsuka is Low Tier thread. It's a composite of the reasons that most people give on these tier threads.

I can't guarantee she's Top tier, but I know she's no lower than Upper Mid.


And I have a hard time saying someone has "the best punisher in the game" when said move is i21 (C2 B and C3 B). I don't think it's all that difficult to play it a little "safe" against Hilde and not throw out easily steppable moves with horrible recovery. Of course, this is difficult with some characters, but pretty much the top half of the cast should be able to do this without limiting their usable movesets by all that much. Bad lows, bad throws, no reason to duck.

For an example of a "best punisher in the game," see EWGFs in Tekken.
 
StrayDogStrut said:
Also, Sieg is mid, at best. This is all random conjectures, so I'm not backing up my opinion with anything (I'm too lazy to write it out).
Click to expand...

I honestly think Sieg is a solid mid at worst, and arguably upper mid. Not good enough to be top 5, but much better than what most people are cutting him out to be. I think it'll take a few months/majors with really talented Sieg players to show their stuff.

Again for reasons that I posted earlier, he's got legit mixups out of his stances, the hidden slide input low that gives +8 on block, WS B being +1 on block is good against pretty much anyone, although characters like Sophie require some dancing to make it work, auto GI's and stance dodges that lead to solid damage, big damage combos, ring control, etc etc etc. He's got a ton of tools, which I think when played really skillfully make up for the more obvious shortcomings of some slow and unsafe moves.
 
I play new X too and serge is not the BEST in the world. what a comment. It was funny lol.

My impression... if it matters... is that X is in Tier 2, above amy. I am uncertain if she is better than sieg or mitsu...
but judging from kowtow's and sacharja's comments it seems so :/

Safe, painful, fast. Problem is her range.. I won't explain too much as i want to focus on Hilde lol.
I believe that Hilde is top tier lol. Meaning top 5...

C3B and FC C2B are imo the best whiff punishers and crouching punishers in the game. Huge RO and huge damage. and both are safe.

Its true that opponents can play alot safer and not whiff, and guard to wait both of them out, but that means that they are opening themselves up to more 2-choice... especially when moving in.

plus those two moves are not only restricted to whiff punishing... they can be used as main mid options to launch crouchers... eating a C3B or FCC2 B when you duck, thinking a throw is coming, is way worse than eating a sophie 66B or ... EVERY launcher in the game.... you get ROed to like miles away and you eat 100 -109 points of damage... even if your character is immune to the combo, you will still eat 75-80 damage... which is also alot of damage for a safe launcher.

The blockstun for C2A, C3A, FCC2A, FCC1A, FCC3A have been covered it seems...

Hilde has solid lows that are safe. 11K is safe, 2A+K is safe.. 2A+B is safe. its true that these are visible on reflex but hey... its bound to work on some people. many people are not going to block it 100%. Plus the animation of 2A+K can be confused with that of 44A... So yes... the argument that her lows suck can be debunked.

Hilde's throws do decent damage imo, 50 and 55... so taht means after GI, throw options are pretty good... as they leave her in a position to play oki too! especially scary when B can be charged to obtain the powerful mids. Also, in light of the reward off the mids, the throws are strengthened.

Hilde can play BOTH a spacing game and a rush down game.

For spacing:

The presence of charged Bs alone are going to make people really NOT want to whiff... so in coming in, running in to guard is an option that might be considered. Hilde can then play a two-choice between a C2B/C3B and throw/low against people who employ such an option. If they run in and attack, 3Ks can stuff people well... 4B+Ks too.. C3Bs and FCC2Bs will land lol. If people want to attack from range, they are going to whiff if you bait...

Hilde HAS MONSTER step. I've tested and iv've found it second to taki's as far as distance is concerned... similar to taki, two steps = backthrow. She can step lots of shit.. stepped BBs = backthrow.. stepped mitsu 2KB = backthrow. Step any move that moves forward and is linear, backthrow.

In general... Ivy and sets should be top imo. Taki should be lower, and rock, raph and maxi should be higher....
 
Dunno if I should post this here, but all these discussions and arguments have motivated me to try and find a way to calculate a characters tier ranking. I've come up with a work in progress sheet & formulas, that I admit still needs refining and tweaking, but it is showing results. Here's Tira JS score card:

http://www.leblackdragon.com/Junk/tira_js.png

I've scored Tira in her 2 modes, Amy, and Nightmare. And here are the results:

http://www.leblackdragon.com/Junk/Score-comparison.gif

Mind you, this IS a work in progress and the scoring still doesn't utilize all available data, attributes, and properties of the characters.
 
KingAce said:
  • Top: Cass, Yoshi, Amy, Algol, Sophie
  • Top Mid: Mitsu, Ivy, Lizardman, Cervy, Voldo
  • Mid: Kilik, Setsuka, Taki, Seig, X, Hilde
  • Bottom Mid: Raph, Nightmare, Asta, Zas, Yun, Tira,
  • Low: The Apprentice, Mina, Talim, Rock, Maxi
Click to expand...

I am cold son I quote my self.
 
I would say Astaroth is much better than bottom mid and put him much higher. His damage is rediculous and unless you are Algol you can't make many mistakes. Cause you have to give him something and everything he does is extreme damage. And the things that aren't extreme damage he has moves to keep you off him and keep you in check.

Most characters have to go 3-5 good choices to his 1. His margin of error is pretty high in his favor so you can't play reckless against him. He can fight you at all ranges and though he can't punish like Cass or Sophie you're forced to break lots of throws. He just has so many ways he can put you away and you can't make no where near as many mistakes as he can.

Can someone explain to me why he's considered to be such a bad character (given he can still win)
 
It's still mostly conjecture, but Asty at the very least has horrible matchups against certain characters. Personally, I think he's straight mid, but that's just me.
 
NinjaCW said:
I think people forget about JF throw -_-
Click to expand...

No we know all about it, he's just slow and unsafe, compared to some of the tools he had in past games. Outside of point blank range, you can pretty much just block any move and either punish it or take your mixup if it puts him in range. Astaroths that try and stay outside and work a soul crush game are fairly easy to GI as well.
 
Honestly I can agree with a lot that has been said here but I do have one question in all seriousness. I don't know any maxi players nor have I even fought any good ones, thus I have practically no experience with fighting him. What is it that makes him so terrible? Please just don't respond with something like he just sucks....lol
 
I say Nightmare's a solid mid. Great damage with a wall and good ring out game, good throw range, okizemes, pressure game, yes his GS can be interrupted by 2As but as long as you don't abuse it or be too obvious with it, he has decent mixups, just look at some of LAU's vids, he always mix them up. NM has some tough matchups, particularly those with alot of TCs though.
 
Nightmare's almost as bad as Maxi............

And for those who have Mina and Rock above Maxi...................I SALUTE YOU ALL!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom