1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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So one offline session made you think that Algol is awesome and Siegfried sucks. You have a lot to learn.

It's possible to block/impact/crouch/jump every attack he has on reaction. All of his stance shit is made useless because almost every character has an attack fast enough to disrupt his stances. His SSH K and SCH K don't make up for this, because even though they are both i11, the negative frames of the attacks that put you into the stances add up to an amount that lets even Astaroth get a free hit. It's possible to get shitloads of free attacks on him after he tries to do anything, and the only advantages he has in terms of impacting are the fact that he can be a lazy bastard and impact every character's 1A on reaction with B+K, and the fact that it can be hard to impact a slow character. Some of his best disruption attacks, 4A and 6K, are completely shakeable, although 4A does seem to be a safe way to get yourself into Reverse Side Hold, which doesn't really matter, because I'm under the impression that it's possible to step SRSH K, SRSH B, and SRSH A+B, and then SRSH A is slow as hell and completely duckable. Online, Siegfried might be something, but in local, he's reduced to shit. Another example is his SBH A+B; its only real use in local is the fact that it can be a free hit after timing B+K a certain way against a horizontal, but it seems like the only real use for this attack after the impact would be to ring out, which can be done with both SBH B and SBH A; the only other use I can think of would be a post-impact low for the purpose of throwing off a counter impact; without the impact, however, it's possible for just about every character in the game to disrupt the attack, and SBH a+bG is useless because every character has a rising or crouching attack fast enough to knock Siegfried out of Reverse Side Hold before he can get a single attack in. Siegfried might work against characters like Seong Mi-na, Astaroth, or Nightmare or something, but against a Kilik or Algol turtling and doing only safe attacks, he seems to be completely useless. He doesn't even have a decent unblockable. 236B is completely useless, and in my opinion, its only real use is destroying people's dead bodies with it. It's slow, ridiculously steppable, and it has no real range compared to the rest of Siegfried's attacks. It does to a bit of damage, but so does CH 3B SCH A+B. It can't ring out, and it barely tech crouches slightly near the end of the unblockable, to prevent people who sidestep from getting a side/back grapple on Siegfried. Other characters with ridiculously slow unblockables, such as Astaroth and Seong Mi-na, actually have ridiculous damage, and in Seong Mi-na's case, a guard breaker switch up. All of his attacks are ridiculously punishable, and because he is forced to turtle half the time, it doesn't really even seem like he has the soul gauge and critical finish advantage.

I've actually been having much more success with Tira in local, mainly because she's fast, relatively safe in comparison to Siegfried, she has an amazing unblockable, and her Gloomy Stance B+K auto-impact healing grapple is the shit.
 
I'm really not understanding how kilik is that good. Sure he's really easy to pick up and can destroy average players. but when it comes down to expert players it seems he's very predictable and easy to pick apart.

I've had this mentality on him since SC2. He's a great n00b and average person character but gets pwned if you know what your doing.

I could be wrong since I don't use kilik, but I'm always really happy when i fight a kilik, knowing I have a very good chance of winning. I wouldn't say he's mina bad though (poor girl needs a buff), but middle tier for sure imo.
 
I'm really not understanding how kilik is that good. Sure he's really easy to pick up and can destroy average players. but when it comes down to expert players it seems he's very predictable and easy to pick apart.

I've had this mentality on him since SC2. He's a great n00b and average person character but gets pwned if you know what your doing.

I could be wrong since I don't use kilik, but I'm always really happy when i fight a kilik, knowing I have a very good chance of winning. I wouldn't say he's mina bad though (poor girl needs a buff), but middle tier for sure imo.

he's got crazy good options. at almost any range he can make you think twice about stepping or how you should be blocking. the only time i see the guy really lose his mixup ability is when you get in his face. even then asura becomes an efficient, viable option. not only that, but he's got moves that have great pushback on block to put you back into that comfortable position.
 
I can't believe this thread has managed to get even worse, even after Angrel's joke list and the guy on CF.com who bragged about his rank in Special vs. Nevertheless, it has.... dear god, it has.
 
I'll agree. I played a lot of SC3 (unfortunately) and this game provides the best balance of the series.

-But whats up w/ Nightmare being so low? I've been is fan since sc2. He can be slow, and his wind ups only take 3-4 days, but his power is not to be ignored and his juggle potential is amazing.
 
Luck47: Nightmare is a difficult character to tier accurately. As I said earlier, he could be anywhere from B to D on the ranking scale I used (S to E).
 
What is the tier list that comes close more than others to the definitive one?
And so, isn't the first topic's one?
( * Top: Cass, Kilik, Yoshi, Voldo, Algol, Setsuka
* Top Mid: Sophie, Mitsu, Seig, Amy, Hilde, X, Cervy,
* Mid: Taki, Lizardman, Ivy, The Apprentice
* Bottom Mid: Raph, Nightmare, Tira, Asta, Maxi, Yun,
* Low: Zas, Mina, Talim, Rock, Vader, Yoda)
 
I personally think Tira should be at least mid. She has a fair degree of speed, and some very powerful combos in Gloomy Stance.

Yoda can actually be fairly useful. I don't really think he gets the credit he deserves. After all, half the game's combos and attacks don't work on him, and he has some nice punishers himself. He can also be a great counterpick against some characters, like Nightmare, Raphael, and Rock. Picture this: a Yoda that can impact. He already has an auto-impacter that allows for force grapples, which can ring out if I recall correctly. Also, it seems like he could be very successful with 3G, mainly because he doesn't really have to worry much about impacting high attacks.
 
Yoda can actually be fairly useful. I don't really think he gets the credit he deserves. After all, half the game's combos and attacks don't work on him, and he has some nice punishers himself. He can also be a great counterpick against some characters, like Nightmare, Raphael, and Rock. Picture this: a Yoda that can impact. He already has an auto-impacter that allows for force grapples, which can ring out if I recall correctly. Also, it seems like he could be very successful with 3G, mainly because he doesn't really have to worry much about impacting high attacks.
My experience with a 3_1G defense Yoda is that a lot of his useful moves have bad frames on block so it requires quite a bit of strict timing. One more thing; what this really amounts to is Yoda playing against a 50/50 mix up every time he decides to play like this (fast vs slow attacks). So while Yoda can essentially GI all attacks in theory, how does it compare to a regular character's ability to guard, step, and back-dash among other things? All I see as far as Yoda's defense goes is a crap Soul Gauge, the ability to negate a little less than half of the mixup associated with GI (there are still quite a bit of high attacks that can hit him), and the ability to evade a bit with moves like A+K and 236K. In the end, we still haven't figured out how Yoda can deal with characters with good keep away moves, stalker jumps, or nigh unblockable low strings (Zas). I think it's safe to say that he's a candidate for bottom tier.

I wouldn't say he's a counterpick against NM. It's an annoying matchup, but NM deals. NM's 6K, aB, and NSS K are highs that can hit Yoda (6K being a lot more reliable, aB, and NSS K only being useful at really close range). At range, NM has 66B, GS B, 3A+B, among other things, all of these take chunks from the Gauge. I'd go on but I just realized I'm talking about Yoda in a tiers discussion thread...Yoda lol...
 
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