mikosu
Goderator of pink hearts
You guys forgot to list X. Lol. You know she's up there. We're still finding new mess with characters all the time but I agree with Noface's list for the most part. I think that'll be the standard.
1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)
- Thread starter RTD
- Start date
- Status
DarkTalant
[08] Mercenary
Dam'it I was hoping no-one would notice this.
Tiamat
[11] Champion
did not know that
about some of the recent lists posted....AA tier? since when do people use an AA tier?
KDZaster
[09] Warrior
American Airlines tier, baby.
Maxi is there.
Rising dragon of the Zodiac!?
Maxi is there.
Rising dragon of the Zodiac!?
BlackDragon37
[12] Conqueror
A+, maybe?
Dullyanna
[10] Knight
Give me evidence to support both of those statements, plz.
Nofacekill3r
[11] Champion
Noface Tier list ver 1.02 (now featuring Xianghua!):
S
*Hilde*, Voldo, Kilik, Algol
A+
Cassandra, Setsuka, Yoshimitsu, Amy
A
Sophie, Lizardman, Cervantes, Taki
B
Astaroth, Xianghua, Ivy, Siegfried, Mitsurugi, Nightmare, Apprentice
C
Raphael, Tira, Vader, Yun, Maxi, Talim
D
Rock, Seong Mina, Zasalamel
Short Bus
Yoda
I also changed AA into A+ so Tiamat can get his OCD fix. Vader and Talim stay where they are, though.
S
*Hilde*, Voldo, Kilik, Algol
A+
Cassandra, Setsuka, Yoshimitsu, Amy
A
Sophie, Lizardman, Cervantes, Taki
B
Astaroth, Xianghua, Ivy, Siegfried, Mitsurugi, Nightmare, Apprentice
C
Raphael, Tira, Vader, Yun, Maxi, Talim
D
Rock, Seong Mina, Zasalamel
Short Bus
Yoda
I also changed AA into A+ so Tiamat can get his OCD fix. Vader and Talim stay where they are, though.
Tiamat
[11] Champion
sweet. cass and yoshi are too linear to be that high tier though, need to be knocked down a rank. step G eats their babies.
Nofacekill3r
[11] Champion
Yeah and iMCF makes it so you can't have babies in the first place.
Tiamat
[11] Champion
thats cause yoshi is pro choice
Jaxel
Administrator
I think this is a very good list... he just needs to move Zas up and Talim down.
Impending_Doom66
[09] Warrior
I think not, but I do think X is good enough for A tier.
Windstar
[13] Hero
Is the reason Hilde's up there simply because of the combo? If it weren't, where would Hilde fit?
IMHO, I think Sophie is better than Cass. Sure Cass has mix-ups and combos, but Sophie's got great SG piercing, safety, and punishes just as well as Cass does. Cass will find holes in your defense. Sophie doesn't care if you're blocking or not, you're still screwed.
With Kilik, just because he has no bad match ups, doesn't mean he has any clear advantages over other character. AD or no, it's still punishable on block by just about everyone. He's certainly not bad, but I don't think he has a dominating front against anyone. If your argument is because of that, whereas the rest of the cast has good/bad match ups. I'd argue that they'd have to be very good/bad match ups for Kilik to end up that high. From my experience, no one character has that much of an edge over another.
Impending_Doom66
[09] Warrior
Tiamat
[11] Champion
cass has good throw mixups. certainly better than sophie's mixups (though sophie is better in other areas)
Impending_Doom66
[09] Warrior
Oh yeah that's true. I was just thinking of lows for some reason.
rashreflection
[09] Warrior
hey, remember when killa6 said hilde & setsuka were the best in the game and we all laughed at him?
look like he may not have been that far off...
i still say voldo > hilde though, just because he doesn't have any real counter-characters afaik
look like he may not have been that far off...
i still say voldo > hilde though, just because he doesn't have any real counter-characters afaik
ShenYuan
[10] Knight
Hey guys... about Noface's tier list... personally i dont see how xianghua is below Cassandra, Amy, Yoshimitsu, Cervantes, Taki. Ill only compare to the first two though. comparing with all the ones stated above will be kinda tiring.
These are my reasons:
1. Better mixups.
Xianghua can mixup stepB/FC3B and throw at close range. Step B does 60 damage or more while throw does 70 for the B throw, and 55 for the A throw. FC3B at close range is over 60 pts of damage) At mid range, Xianghua has WSA+B (For some reason the range is absurd. This can hit 1.5 Xianghuas away) With FC3B. WSA+B is neutral on hit with a safe high followup, and it can enter SXS. The B ender of WSA+B can be sorta hitchecked to land the whole NCC. FC3B is safe, it has good range, tracks to one side and does 60 or more damage, depending on range). At mid range, 1K and 1kA can work together very well. 1kA is hitcheckable and does approximately 61 points of damage and gives good advantage. 1K is really hard to punish at mid range.
Xianghu's mixups are better because...
in comparison to Cassandra, Amy.
Cass 236 does 64ish damage, and the 2B 8BAA can be more consistent. 236 is punishable. Throws do about the same amount of damage as X. Both mixups can lead to RO... Cass midrange mixup is kinda poor too. 1A is blockable on reflex, and is punishable. FC1B is good and MIGHT work with WSB. Cass has good crouch throws that do at max.. around 60ish damage.
Analyisis: Xianghua has the better mixup, because FC 3B hurts more as a mid up close than 236... not to mention it is safe. Step B does less damage, but its safe and has a built in step. Both characters have good throw damage; however X has the throw range. Xiang also has better crouch throws, as she can hit 90+ points at max, unlike Cass. Moreover, Xianghua can mixup 1.5 Character spaces away with a hard to punish WSA+B and safe FC3B.
Amy 33B does 50ish damage, is safe tracks to her left. Her low,2B+K can do up to 30+ damage, close to 40 and leaves her at -19. Her throws do poor damage. At mid range she has 33B and 1A. 1A does low damage, and is -20ish on guard.
Analysis: Xianghua's mixup is better because It hurts more... it also tracks well... in fact even better than amy's. Not to mention, 1A does too little damage for its risk.. i mean it gives advantage, but good opponents can punish this reallly really hard (e.g. Hilde FCC2B, X FC3B). At least throw has the damage reward that can square with 1A. FC3B, WSA+B, 1K, 1kA, StepB all track to one side, or are unsteppable. X has better throws... definitely.
2. Better Pokes
Xianghua has AAB, 6BA, BB, 2K. AAB is hitchekable, does almost 40 damage on hit. 6BA is retarded, its a 14 frame attack that is good on guard (-10)... when the second part hits, there is a glitchy buffer lock... if the opponent wants to attack back nothing will come out. they'll just stand there doing nothing. To beat it they have to G cancel then attack. So tis like X gets a free mixup after it hits... and the only way out is GI. BB is a standard BB with good range. 2K is too awesome. It has gay TC properties, making many TJ moves and retreating moves whiff (Almost all 9Bs and 9Ks... Kilik 1K and mitsu 4B)... and when X is at advantage, it is unsteppable.
Cassandra has AA, BB, 2K, 6B. AA is i13, with good advantage on hit, and range. BB hurts with good range... 2K is kinda short. 6B Is really good with good hitstun.
Analysis: X wins. Superior 2K, AA (i11) and gay 6BA. Only thing i feel cass wins in is her BB and the damage off 6B.
Amy has BB, a short ranged.. but good set of verts that give good advantage. She has 6BB which is a retareded i11 poke that leads to many many mixups. 2K is standard. 3K is ok.. low damage but good advantage. But yeah 6BB and BB is the juice.
Analysis: X wins. AA also leads to mixups via SXS... and AA is horizontal. Both have good BBs... but amy wins because she gets more advantage.. and both BBs do more damage. But X 2K and 6BA are too good, compared to what amy has... Like 6BB is really really good but X has overall more solid pokes.
3. Better wakeup
Xianghua has 2K and FC3B.. both cannot be rolled when opponent is down. FC3B can be rolled actually. but for some reason its soooo damnnn hard to do it. Very safe from almost the whole cast, except those with crouch grabs. 1K tracks to one side... so opponents who see it coming might block low... thats where 1kA comes to get them to stand up. When X is down, Guei is the bomb.
Cassandra has 4BBA which is rollable to one side. 1K can be rolled. 1A is blockable on reflex. 33B hits only big characters when they roll. 3B is unsafe and can be rolled. Its not bad though.
Amy has 33B and 2B+K.. essentially, her mixup hits grounded... BUt they are rollable, and 2B+K is really really unsafe.
Analysis: TBH all have really really good wakeup tools but X has the privelege of having stuff that cant be rolled consistently. And are safe/hard to punish. X has guei too. And guei is really really good.
4. Better tools to deal with pressure.
Xianghua has
Tech crouch-> 44AA
Tech jump-> 9b/9K
Tech crouch and tech jump-> aK
Backstep -> 44B
Sidestep -> step B
Sidestep AND tech crouch -> 1B+K and 66A+B
Interrupters-> 2A,AAB,FC3B,Step B
Auto-GIs-> 4A+B and 4A+K.
Amy has ->
Tech crouch-> 3BA
Tech jump-> A+K, 9K, 9A+B
Backstep -> 44B
Sidestep -> 22/88B, Step 33B.
Interrupters-> 2A, 6BBB, 33B
Auto-GIs-> B+K and A+B (hate)
Cass has:
Tech crouch-> 2B+K, 236AB
Tech jump-> 9b, 1K
Backstep and autoGI-> 214
Sidestep -> 22A, step 236
Interrupters-> 2A, 236
Auto-GIs-> FC3B, 4A+K and 4B+K.
Analysis: I think X wins because she have more variety. More variety = reverse options must be baited in more ways. Im not going to bring up how easy they are to punish cos frankly, all these are very punishable when baited correctly. The only reversal attack ill talk about being HARD to punish is hilde C3A.
5. Ability to Space
X can space better than Amy and Cass.
X has 3B 3A to interrupt people at range well. Step B is retarded at long range cos its tough to punish and it has amazing range... X has 44A+B to pwn steppers. So yeah.. Essentially Step B gives her a crazy spacing game.
From my experience, Cass and Amy seem a lot more rush down oriented and they dont seem to be able to set up mixups by utlising space as X. Amy especially... a lot of her moves with good range move her forward. I feel cass might be able to space better... but not as well as X.
For whiff punishing , i'd put them all equal.. iFC3B/stepB to whiff punish for X, 33B for Amy and Cass 236 all do around the same damage when it hits at mid range.
Amy and cass however, beat X as far as punishing is concerned
X has
-11: AA
-15: 4K3B
-17: (from crouch or not)->6B+K
-21: StepB
-16: from crouch, WSK
-20: From crouch FC 3B.
-12: From crouch, low throw.
Cass has
-13: AA
-16: 236 (Pretty much the reason why cass pwns in punishment)
-12 from crouch: crouch throw
Amy has
-11: 6BB even from crouch into mixup
-14(or is it 15?): BB
-16: 66B
-18: 3B
Analysis: X loses to these 2 in terms of punishment. BUT its not too shabby.
So in summary, X beats cass and amy in terms of mixup, poking, reverse options, wakeup and the ability to space... ties as far as whiff punishing is concerned... but loses in punishing. I have the opinion that X's CF game is superior too... along with other elements.. but ill leave it at this first.
These are my reasons:
1. Better mixups.
Xianghua can mixup stepB/FC3B and throw at close range. Step B does 60 damage or more while throw does 70 for the B throw, and 55 for the A throw. FC3B at close range is over 60 pts of damage) At mid range, Xianghua has WSA+B (For some reason the range is absurd. This can hit 1.5 Xianghuas away) With FC3B. WSA+B is neutral on hit with a safe high followup, and it can enter SXS. The B ender of WSA+B can be sorta hitchecked to land the whole NCC. FC3B is safe, it has good range, tracks to one side and does 60 or more damage, depending on range). At mid range, 1K and 1kA can work together very well. 1kA is hitcheckable and does approximately 61 points of damage and gives good advantage. 1K is really hard to punish at mid range.
Xianghu's mixups are better because...
in comparison to Cassandra, Amy.
Cass 236 does 64ish damage, and the 2B 8BAA can be more consistent. 236 is punishable. Throws do about the same amount of damage as X. Both mixups can lead to RO... Cass midrange mixup is kinda poor too. 1A is blockable on reflex, and is punishable. FC1B is good and MIGHT work with WSB. Cass has good crouch throws that do at max.. around 60ish damage.
Analyisis: Xianghua has the better mixup, because FC 3B hurts more as a mid up close than 236... not to mention it is safe. Step B does less damage, but its safe and has a built in step. Both characters have good throw damage; however X has the throw range. Xiang also has better crouch throws, as she can hit 90+ points at max, unlike Cass. Moreover, Xianghua can mixup 1.5 Character spaces away with a hard to punish WSA+B and safe FC3B.
Amy 33B does 50ish damage, is safe tracks to her left. Her low,2B+K can do up to 30+ damage, close to 40 and leaves her at -19. Her throws do poor damage. At mid range she has 33B and 1A. 1A does low damage, and is -20ish on guard.
Analysis: Xianghua's mixup is better because It hurts more... it also tracks well... in fact even better than amy's. Not to mention, 1A does too little damage for its risk.. i mean it gives advantage, but good opponents can punish this reallly really hard (e.g. Hilde FCC2B, X FC3B). At least throw has the damage reward that can square with 1A. FC3B, WSA+B, 1K, 1kA, StepB all track to one side, or are unsteppable. X has better throws... definitely.
2. Better Pokes
Xianghua has AAB, 6BA, BB, 2K. AAB is hitchekable, does almost 40 damage on hit. 6BA is retarded, its a 14 frame attack that is good on guard (-10)... when the second part hits, there is a glitchy buffer lock... if the opponent wants to attack back nothing will come out. they'll just stand there doing nothing. To beat it they have to G cancel then attack. So tis like X gets a free mixup after it hits... and the only way out is GI. BB is a standard BB with good range. 2K is too awesome. It has gay TC properties, making many TJ moves and retreating moves whiff (Almost all 9Bs and 9Ks... Kilik 1K and mitsu 4B)... and when X is at advantage, it is unsteppable.
Cassandra has AA, BB, 2K, 6B. AA is i13, with good advantage on hit, and range. BB hurts with good range... 2K is kinda short. 6B Is really good with good hitstun.
Analysis: X wins. Superior 2K, AA (i11) and gay 6BA. Only thing i feel cass wins in is her BB and the damage off 6B.
Amy has BB, a short ranged.. but good set of verts that give good advantage. She has 6BB which is a retareded i11 poke that leads to many many mixups. 2K is standard. 3K is ok.. low damage but good advantage. But yeah 6BB and BB is the juice.
Analysis: X wins. AA also leads to mixups via SXS... and AA is horizontal. Both have good BBs... but amy wins because she gets more advantage.. and both BBs do more damage. But X 2K and 6BA are too good, compared to what amy has... Like 6BB is really really good but X has overall more solid pokes.
3. Better wakeup
Xianghua has 2K and FC3B.. both cannot be rolled when opponent is down. FC3B can be rolled actually. but for some reason its soooo damnnn hard to do it. Very safe from almost the whole cast, except those with crouch grabs. 1K tracks to one side... so opponents who see it coming might block low... thats where 1kA comes to get them to stand up. When X is down, Guei is the bomb.
Cassandra has 4BBA which is rollable to one side. 1K can be rolled. 1A is blockable on reflex. 33B hits only big characters when they roll. 3B is unsafe and can be rolled. Its not bad though.
Amy has 33B and 2B+K.. essentially, her mixup hits grounded... BUt they are rollable, and 2B+K is really really unsafe.
Analysis: TBH all have really really good wakeup tools but X has the privelege of having stuff that cant be rolled consistently. And are safe/hard to punish. X has guei too. And guei is really really good.
4. Better tools to deal with pressure.
Xianghua has
Tech crouch-> 44AA
Tech jump-> 9b/9K
Tech crouch and tech jump-> aK
Backstep -> 44B
Sidestep -> step B
Sidestep AND tech crouch -> 1B+K and 66A+B
Interrupters-> 2A,AAB,FC3B,Step B
Auto-GIs-> 4A+B and 4A+K.
Amy has ->
Tech crouch-> 3BA
Tech jump-> A+K, 9K, 9A+B
Backstep -> 44B
Sidestep -> 22/88B, Step 33B.
Interrupters-> 2A, 6BBB, 33B
Auto-GIs-> B+K and A+B (hate)
Cass has:
Tech crouch-> 2B+K, 236AB
Tech jump-> 9b, 1K
Backstep and autoGI-> 214
Sidestep -> 22A, step 236
Interrupters-> 2A, 236
Auto-GIs-> FC3B, 4A+K and 4B+K.
Analysis: I think X wins because she have more variety. More variety = reverse options must be baited in more ways. Im not going to bring up how easy they are to punish cos frankly, all these are very punishable when baited correctly. The only reversal attack ill talk about being HARD to punish is hilde C3A.
5. Ability to Space
X can space better than Amy and Cass.
X has 3B 3A to interrupt people at range well. Step B is retarded at long range cos its tough to punish and it has amazing range... X has 44A+B to pwn steppers. So yeah.. Essentially Step B gives her a crazy spacing game.
From my experience, Cass and Amy seem a lot more rush down oriented and they dont seem to be able to set up mixups by utlising space as X. Amy especially... a lot of her moves with good range move her forward. I feel cass might be able to space better... but not as well as X.
For whiff punishing , i'd put them all equal.. iFC3B/stepB to whiff punish for X, 33B for Amy and Cass 236 all do around the same damage when it hits at mid range.
Amy and cass however, beat X as far as punishing is concerned
X has
-11: AA
-15: 4K3B
-17: (from crouch or not)->6B+K
-21: StepB
-16: from crouch, WSK
-20: From crouch FC 3B.
-12: From crouch, low throw.
Cass has
-13: AA
-16: 236 (Pretty much the reason why cass pwns in punishment)
-12 from crouch: crouch throw
Amy has
-11: 6BB even from crouch into mixup
-14(or is it 15?): BB
-16: 66B
-18: 3B
Analysis: X loses to these 2 in terms of punishment. BUT its not too shabby.
So in summary, X beats cass and amy in terms of mixup, poking, reverse options, wakeup and the ability to space... ties as far as whiff punishing is concerned... but loses in punishing. I have the opinion that X's CF game is superior too... along with other elements.. but ill leave it at this first.
Dullyanna
[10] Knight
I know this is off-topic, but it has to be said. We need to start using Xianghuas as a unit of measurement.
- Status