1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

[BatousaiNori]

Vincent: BT mixups and iGDR is not everything Cervantes is about. Cervantes is like a big theme park: People look at the big rides but forget the small things also which makes it fun (in this case effective)

aB is a great whiff punisher and most things that can be punished w/AA (which is a lot), aB takes off a CHUNK

bK is nuts. It leaves you on zero on block, but most chars won't interrupt his 3K (3K also leads to BT BTW). As long as Cervantes has 3K (if your game relies on BT, which would be weird), he can EASILY JF into BT mixups. If you do bK, and they try to 2A, do bK again. I've gotten many ROs w/this, wall splats and it's safe. It has good distance and if they techroll back, it's a free 3B launch. If you sideroll, Cervantes is on top of you again, which is exactly where he wants to be. He's the last char in the game you want in your face mixing you up

2A+B is SO EASY to get on CH. You get that on CH, WS A greatness comes out.

Cervantes is for sure not 6-8 ranking, it's just that again, people get discouraged using him and they just don't know how. The fact he has iGDR, viable ways (I use 3K in tourneys) to get into BT, excellent throw game (the A throw rings out pretty far actually).

P.S. Another way to get into BT w/him is his simple B throw. He goes into DC, do the K. You get 48 damage and you are in BT. I've had LOTS of success w/this, plus I don't have to worry about ROing myself w/doing i214 B+K LOL

 

[Dr. Hates]

Cervantes is better than every character except Hilde and Algol. He's just extremely difficult to use.

WS A mixups aren't a yawn--you essentially have a 33% chance of losing half a bar and a 100% chance of losing nearly 1/4 bar. He can punish almost everything that is punishable, and punish it hard. He can zone VERY well. He drops massive damage for standard launch combos, etc. Excellent throws. His wall game is sick.

The only real knocks he has are ease of use, lack of a decent ringout game, and his piss-poor sidestep. Talk to me a few months from now when I have worked out these niggling details...

 

[BatousaiNori]

The only real knocks he has are ease of use, lack of a decent ringout game, and his piss-poor sidestep. Talk to me a few months from now when I have worked out these niggling details...

And let's not forget his HORRIBLE lack of CF haha. Yeah man, I'm hearing Hilde is the shit but I've been out of it for 2 months. But I'm REALLY surprised at the number of people who STILL haven't seen how good the PIRATE is. I figured since the game came out, people would have discovered this by now but oh well.

When are you coming back down to TX? Are you coming for Houston Regionals? I'll have an apartment by then so if you want to stay in SA, let me know dude.

 

[MONEYMUFFINS]

Cervantes is better than every character except Hilde and Algol.

Cervantes is better than Kilik, Amy, and Voldo?

At one point you had me consider Sophi being mid tier in SC3. You even made me consider Hwang was trash just because you thought so. Well, I'm not falling for that joke again. Sophi was definitely top 2 or top 3 then, and there's no way Cervy is top 3 in SCIV. Perhaps we should settle this dispute over a cup of tea while discussing whose politics are better.

 

[BatousaiNori]

Cervantes is better than Kilik, Amy, and Voldo?

At one point you had me consider Sophi being mid tier in SC3. You even made me consider Hwang was trash just because you thought so. Well, I'm not falling for that joke again. Sophi was definitely top 2 or top 3 then, and there's no way Cervy is top 3 in SCIV. Perhaps we should settle this dispute over a cup of tea while discussing whose politics are better.

Sophie wasn't top tier in SC3. Sisters were extremely overrated. Yes, Cervantes is better than Kilik/Amy/Voldo, hands down. Voldo is just easier. Amy is spam friendly but doesn't have Cervantes's tools. Kilik has to take more risks to win than Cervantes does. Cervantes can control the match better than every char in the game minus Hilde/Algol.

Sisters rely on you making mistakes. They don't have good tools to really make you duck. They are poke machines and good punishers. Sisters have ALWAYS been overrated. Cervantes was top 5 in SC3 also. I don't know about Hwang, you had a really good Hwang in SC3 and I never knew his tier ranking, nor cared. But yeah.....Cass was top 5 in SC3, maybe.

Hates showed me the light at the end of SC3 how to beat the sisters and I haven't lost to sisters since.

 

[MONEYMUFFINS]

I don't know, I can say the same thing too. Mick/RTD showed me the light with Sophi in SC3 so then she became top tier in my eyes. Lolz??? I think Cervantes is A tier, but if Kilik is also A tier, then Kilik is at least better in that same category. His damage + ring out ability with throws and Asura could care less about your punishing game.

 

[KingAce]

No no no! Everybody should have figured it out that Astaroth is top 3 by now....you kats is slow. Cervantes...this, Amy that...this Kilik, taht voldo...fuck that shit son while we Asta players play happy grap ass with your characters.

 

[TheWatcherAlias]

Question now is: how does Nori's tier list look like? If Cervantes is not #6-8 in the pecking order but he is better than Kilik, Voldo, Amy, and the Sisters, then who are the 6 characters thats not Algol and Hilde? Yoshimitsu, Setsuka, Xianhua, Ivy, Taki, and Mitsurugi? Do you actually believe these guys are better than Kilik, Voldo, Cass, and Soph?

If not a tier list, lets see your Top 10 rankings Nori, if you don't mind?

As for the tier list posted up, Noface is the best IMO. And more people agreed with it. The other two, one guy self-proclaimed its the best and the other one, two people agreed to it. How did they even get posted up?

 

[hotnikkelz]

Cervantes is definitely up there...not toppest of top, but DEFINITELY better than Hilde...who i believe is overrated. Her only strength is the death combo which relies on 2 things opponent whiffing, or GId something. Apart from that she's not impressive at all. Only her death combo makes her that good.
By the way iGDR is i15. Not i14 like ppl claim, i've tested this so many times. Either way....This is quite a risky move if used for anything other than whiff punishment and bad recovery attacks. Buffered or not, in actual gameplay you're not going to punish attacks that are -15 with this. Theoeretically u can punish Asta's 6K with iGDR but it's not going to happen.

Sophie/Cass are in upper mid i'd say.

X is definitely underrated. She's perfection once you know her well enough. She is a character like Voldo that has no apparent weaknesses in their game as far as i can see

Amy...top tier is pretty laughable considering her damage output. I'll say she's upper mid at best.


S -Algol, Voldo, Kilik, X
A -Cervy, Hilde, Amy
B -Asta, Yoshi, Sets, Cass, Sophie
C - everybody else, with Ivy and Mitsu leading the pack

 

[wing_zero]

Asta should be at least high mid if not high tier; A lot of the top-tier characters have a very hard time with Asta...

 

[docvizzo]

@hotnikkelz

We had this iGDR as a punisher topic so often, and once we tested some Moves that were -15, but you couldnt punish shit with it. I think (correct me if im wrong) Zas 1AB is -15, everybody who says its possible can try to punish him, its nearly impossible´.

Even if you could do it, it a huge risk to throw out a Move in 1 FRAME that leads to 80-120 Damage for almost ANY Character who blocks it. if you take 2 Frames, you eat 120 Damage against Kilik.

I think Algol, Kilik, Voldo and Hilde are better right now. Cervy could be Top 5. But not best. And Wing Zero is right, Asta is absolutely dominamt in France (Saitoh always #1) and even here in Germany. He is underrated.

 

[MichaelJackson]

Cervantes is better than every character except Hilde and Algol. He's just extremely difficult to use.

WS A mixups aren't a yawn--you essentially have a 33% chance of losing half a bar and a 100% chance of losing nearly 1/4 bar. He can punish almost everything that is punishable, and punish it hard. He can zone VERY well. He drops massive damage for standard launch combos, etc. Excellent throws. His wall game is sick.

The only real knocks he has are ease of use, lack of a decent ringout game, and his piss-poor sidestep. Talk to me a few months from now when I have worked out these niggling details...

Couldn't the same be said for Setsuka though?

If someone could consistently hit her iUmbrella (i12) to punish and never mess up a 1AA, or her B+K series, or all of her iUmbrella follow ups, wouldn't she also be up there?

It's the whole communism thing, good on paper, bad in execution.

I will say that you, SENOR HATES, are the best damn example of Cervy and how he should be played in teh wurld, hands down.

 

[Dr. Hates]

Vints--No tea. As a great American, I settle my disputes like Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, both great Americans who came before me. Namely, through an extended series of increasingly bitchy letters written in flowery calligraphy.

MJ--I think this *particular* sort of theory fighting is entirely appropriate to tier discussion. Stuff like "OMG Nightmare is good because he can duck all throws and punish lightly" is ridiculous, of course, and anything dealing with a particular matchup wherein you posit that you will never guess wrong is silly, but in terms of raw character evaluation I think it's incumbent upon us to try to factor out human error as much as possible.

 

[eltoshan]

from theory fighter perspective, setsuka > cervy, correct me if I'm wrong, I just started messing around with cervy recently.

Setsuka has better CF, I don't think I need to argue that.

Setsuka has better safety, I don't think I need to argue that either.

Setsuka has better ringout, I don't think I need to arge this one either.

Setsuka has better throw game: average 64 to 70 damage, 114 with wall. Cervy gets 70 only off of command throw and wakes.

Setuka has better post GI: between 70 and 90 damage, 120 to 140 with wall. Cervy gets iGDR or 4[A]?

Setsuka has better spacing: 4A creates space, safe. 1B:B creates space, safe, can 214214 backdash afterwards. Cervy has terrible stepping and iTP doesn't activate until the 15th frame or something.

Setsuka has better punishment from step: 70 to 90 damage depending on the move stepped, 120 to 140 with wall. Cervy gets 3B and iGDR combos for 60ish damage.

similar wake up, neither has exceptional lows.

similar damage, even with wall combos considered.

similar punishment, Cervy has an i15 punisher that does a little more damage, Setsuka has an i12 punisher that does a little less damage.

Setsuka has worse range punishment, only in terms of damage output, cervy gets 60 damage with iGDR and Setsuka gets 50+ with 33B.

 

[Alex.J]

For everyone who doesn't know Hilde I will make a break down of why she is so cheap

- C3A is a tech crouching, auto gi'ng, frames on block, decent at tracking, ring out combo'able mid

- her a+b is a fairly quick mid that also gives frames on block that also has some tracking which never gets used because her charge moves are so much better. Any other character would kill to have hilde's a+b.

- her b,b has very long range and annoying tracking properties

-she has some of the best evasion moves in the game, 7k can lead to ringouts and a free back throw if they are near a wall. 1b also has many great uses.

-she does have a good quick punisher 6a+k, although almost anyone playing her would sacrifice a little damage for the ringout combo's. Again, there are a lot of other characters who would kill to have the move 6a+k

- her doom combo's, these don't just come from one move but a whole shit list of great moves. Multiple charge moves leave her positive on block. The ability to ring someone out that far especially considering how small the average stage is makes them extremely good. This ability to ring out leads to her getting messed up mixups no other character has. At best someone can get near half life like cervy, but hilde gets death off of her mixups. She can also get death if she steps your move, ducks your move, and auto gi's your move.

-even when she doesn't ring out she gets great damage, she gets around 100 off c3b.

- she also has one of the best steps in the game

Please tell me whats overrated about that hotnikkelz

 

[Nofacekill3r]

For everyone who doesn't know Hilde I will make a break down of why she is so cheap

- C3A is a tech crouching, auto gi'ng, frames on block, decent at tracking, ring out combo'able mid

- her a+b is a fairly quick mid that also gives frames on block that also has some tracking which never gets used because her charge moves are so much better. Any other character would kill to have hilde's a+b.

- her b,b has very long range and annoying tracking properties

-she has some of the best evasion moves in the game, 7k can lead to ringouts and a free back throw if they are near a wall. 1b also has many great uses.

-she does have a good quick punisher 6a+k, although almost anyone playing her would sacrifice a little damage for the ringout combo's. Again, there are a lot of other characters who would kill to have the move 6a+k

- her doom combo's, these don't just come from one move but a whole shit list of great moves. Multiple charge moves leave her positive on block. The ability to ring someone out that far especially considering how small the average stage is makes them extremely good. This ability to ring out leads to her getting messed up mixups no other character has. At best someone can get near half life like cervy, but hilde gets death off of her mixups. She can also get death if she steps your move, ducks your move, and auto gi's your move.

-even when she doesn't ring out she gets great damage, she gets around 100 off c3b.

- she also has one of the best steps in the game

Please tell me whats overrated about that hotnikkelz

Cons: She has a mole.

 

[BlackDragon37]

And phat lips.

 

[BatousaiNori]

If not a tier list, lets see your Top 10 rankings Nori, if you don't mind?

Sure. I mean, I don't know why people are waiting for a messiah to come around and tell them who's top 10, I'm just very sure Cervantes is at least top 5.

Overall, I feel almost every char in the game can win if played right. However, we all know that Namco loves to make some chars better than others so here's my top 5 in order:

I'm not counting Algol BTW

1) Hilde
2) Cervantes
3) Voldo
4) Setsuka
5) Amy
6) Ivy
7) Kilik
8) Taki (Taki is VERY VERY good, surprised she's not in more discussions)
9) X
10) Yoshi

Change the order, call it a horrible list, do whatever you want. At the end of the day, just be open minded and willing to learn. Anybody that was in the flash chat at any point yesterday probably saw me asking Alex J and Cedric why Hilde was so good. If you don't know something, don't assume your way is better and if you are sure of something, be very ready to back it up. Right now I'm pretty much taking tourney results and lots of top players words that Hilde is top. I don't have any Hildes around me so I can't say much. However, I can almost GUARANTEE most of you reading this don't have any good Cervantes players around you. In the right hands, he gets top 5 at a tourney.

eltoshan: Since when does Cervantes have terrible step? It's one of the best in the game, right behind Ivy. This has ALWAYS been this way for him, ever since SC2

 

[hotnikkelz]

For everyone who doesn't know Hilde I will make a break down of why she is so cheap

- C3A is a tech crouching, auto gi'ng, frames on block, decent at tracking, ring out combo'able mid

- her a+b is a fairly quick mid that also gives frames on block that also has some tracking which never gets used because her charge moves are so much better. Any other character would kill to have hilde's a+b.

- her b,b has very long range and annoying tracking properties

-she has some of the best evasion moves in the game, 7k can lead to ringouts and a free back throw if they are near a wall. 1b also has many great uses.

-she does have a good quick punisher 6a+k, although almost anyone playing her would sacrifice a little damage for the ringout combo's. Again, there are a lot of other characters who would kill to have the move 6a+k

- her doom combo's, these don't just come from one move but a whole shit list of great moves. Multiple charge moves leave her positive on block. The ability to ring someone out that far especially considering how small the average stage is makes them extremely good. This ability to ring out leads to her getting messed up mixups no other character has. At best someone can get near half life like cervy, but hilde gets death off of her mixups. She can also get death if she steps your move, ducks your move, and auto gi's your move.

-even when she doesn't ring out she gets great damage, she gets around 100 off c3b.

- she also has one of the best steps in the game

Please tell me whats overrated about that hotnikkelz

Keep in mind i didn't say she was trash...if you see where i put her.
C3A is good no doubt about it. Everyone has good moves.
A+B is decent but nothing to write home about. I'm not sure why this impresses u.
BB is decent as well, but again nothing special here either. It's slow, the recovery ain't all that. It's her zoning move. Suits her well.

Best evasion? no. 7K has POOR range and the range at where Hilde plays it's hardly applicable. It's fast though and i like it regardless. Again MANY characters have superior evasive moves.

1B is not bad, but not good. Just too linear little damage. Compare it to say Kilik's 1B and you'll see how this doesn't even compare, where evasion is concerned

Her step is good, but you believe that's enough to make her cheap? come on now. 7K cheap? A+B cheap? her BB?! The only thing that is impressive is her death combo. It's high damage, and high chance of ringout. It's the only way she does serious damage.

 

[Tiamat]

The only thing that is impressive is her death combo. It's high damage, and high chance of ringout. It's the only way she does serious damage.

and that's impressive enough to make her top tier imo

eltoshan: Since when does Cervantes have terrible step? It's one of the best in the game, right behind Ivy. This has ALWAYS been this way for him, ever since SC2

don't make the mistake of assuming step rates have always been the same. Maxi's step was "bad" in SC3, now in SC4 it's one of the better ones. He's not the only one this happened to, and often the reverse is the case for other characters.

I do feel the importance of having a good step is overemphasized though. It is more important to have good stuff you can step from on block, as well as good sidestep whiff punishers IMO. Unless you are playing Algol or Yoda, everyone's step is good enough to get the job done in the majority of situations.