1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

[LGInfinite]

That's one of the things that I think the Smash community got right when they were deciding their Tiers. Now, I remember someone suggesting this before and things didn't go so well - people ended up arguing about things like just how bad the Mina vs Hilde match up was.... you know, whether it was 8-2 or 9-1 or whatever.

 

[Tiamat]

I think matchup chart is good idea, it's just that even that is going to be highly biased, as different regions don't get to play each other enough, much less with all the characters being played well. Not only does the matchup chart mean the player(s) must be proficient with the character, it also means the player(s) must be proficient at specific matchups.

 

[ShinobiBrown]

I think matchup chart is good idea, it's just that even that is going to be highly biased, as different regions don't get to play each other enough, much less with all the characters being played well. Not only does the matchup chart mean the player(s) must be proficient with the character, it also means the player(s) must be proficient at specific matchups.

And hence, a lot of collaboration would be needed when it comes to forming a coherent match-up chart. I, personally, think the biggest problem is the ignorance toward particular characters in the game in some regions.

 

[BatousaiNori]

I, personally, think the biggest problem is the ignorance toward particular characters in the game in some regions.

+1. I love how so many people have their mind made up about chars and yet have none of them around them. It's pretty awesome and impressive at the same time. I throw in the towel w/the tiers, the mass ignorance has beaten me

 

[vane505]

Kind of copied my post from CF.com regarding using tournament data.

Different tournaments are on different "levels" skill-wise. Tiers are, IMO, different levels of potential. If you go to scrubby tourneys, the characters won't be used close to it's full potential (or only by a few people, and these people might not have chosen their character based on how effective they are). Of course you can skip the more known tournaments, but then you will never get enough data to evaluate charactes. I mean, how many players will play as Rock for example?

All character are not equally popular. So naturally, some characters will be more played in tournaments than others, and are therefore more likely to place higher.

There are so many more factors you have to take into consideration when basing a tier-list on tourney-results.

You must make the conditions much more strict, like maybe taking results from a high-level tournament, where everyone has to change characters every tourney and train with their specific character for the required amount of time (some characters require more training to play well). But still, some characters would fit some better playstyle-wise, and you wouldn't reach the max. potential of any character, as the participants won't go deep enough with a single character when forced to change so often.

BTW Saitoh, how did you get that matchup-list? From tourneys/discussion?

 

[Maxou]

Hilde 5:5 against Asta and Rock?? You crazy? it's at least 4:6....
And 4:6 against Taki, Amy and Set??? They are 5:5 in my opinion.
Against Tira 5:5....? OTZ 6:4 at the very least with Hilde

I'd say there is a lot of Bias in that chart for Setsuka... 6:4 against Cass? I'd say 5:5

Ivy shouldn't get a 4:6 against Lizard... -_-''''

That chart isn't even THAT objective there are some obvious bias put in it...

It's kinda off topic :

Actually, I believe it's kinda right to say Hilde vs Rock and vs Asta is a fair match up.
I am playing Hilde like she would be patched, using charge not only for RO but only to keep 'em up standing (I get way more KO than RO) and it works pretty good. Well if you only use the RO combo Asta and Rock becomes a problem for her but she doesn't particularly need that to win. Besides, keep in mind no one is really playing her to her full potential : have you actually seen somone do the REAL combo against big characters ? And by real combo I mean FC C2 B/C3 B 44K C2 BB C2 AA, most of the time people only gets C3 A or do something fishy after C2 BB instead of C2 AA. No one bothered to practice it but it actually does quite a lot of damage and RO very far.
The character have yet to display her true potential IMO.

I asked Setsu vs Hilde to be changed to 5-5 (and Setsu vs Tira to be chaged to 7-3 for Setsu). But it hasn't been done yet. Setsu has really good tools against Hilde but the doom combo is broken. One error and you're dead and Hilde has the tools to provoke that.

Setsuka vs Cassy is 6-4 for Setsuka. Really. Cassy is overated. Providing you can see Cassy's lows (which is kinda easy), Setsu has : better whiff punishment, better safety, better frame traps, better damage overall.

Some (not a lot though) 5:5 match up are when we don't really know the match up (never encountered the character), it still needs some work like Saitoh said. Besides, it is still opened for discussion, you could discuss there in english if you want, of some match up you don't agree.

BTW Saitoh, how did you get that matchup-list? From tourneys/discussion?

Yes, although the France community isn't as big as USA's so more discussion and first to 5 or 10 than tourney (you can't always encounter some characters in tourney). As an exemple Setsuka, Zasalamel, Cervantes are a rarity in France.

 

[errorrrr]

It's kinda off topic :

Actually, I believe it's kinda right to say Hilde vs Rock and vs Asta is a fair match up.
I am playing Hilde like she would be patched, using charge not only for RO but only to keep 'em up standing (I get way more KO than RO) and it works pretty good. Well if you only use the RO combo Asta and Rock becomes a problem for her but she doesn't particularly need that to win. Besides, keep in mind no one is really playing her to her full potential : have you actually seen somone do the REAL combo against big characters ? And by real combo I mean FC C2 B/C3 B 44K C2 BB C2 AA, most of the time people only gets C3 A or do something fishy after C2 BB instead of C2 AA. No one bothered to practice it but it actually does quite a lot of damage and RO very far.
The character have yet to display her true potential IMO.

Honestly, I've never seen a full FC C2B version pulled off ever in tournaments... but C3B ver gets done quite a bit... Rock and Asta gets natural immunity from that as well. Not only that, Asta and Rock have better range control than Hilde and at close up, Hilde will eat quite a bit of throws.

Also, isn't it a good idea to make these charts region specific?? :o

 

[docvizzo]

I really have to say, at the beginn of SC4 i thought Cervantes unsafeness is going to kill him.

But he actually can be played pretty safe, you wont see me spamming unsafe stuff too often.

Moves that are (pretty) safe:

3A+B- Full anti Step, negative on Hit

3B- -14, which is cool for a launcher,AA or 2A unless you playing Soph/Setsuka, not a big Deal

FC A+BBB- Pure awesomeness, i had to convince people 3-4 for months on how great this Move is. Tracks quite well. +13 on Block, Free aB on a Wall, FULL Tech Traps afterwards, First Animation Frames look like a Throw since he is going into Neutral again. Instant Duck into FC A+BBB, A+G, iCommand Throw, 2K, 1K is all you need. If they start attacking, instant WS A or iWS K will help out. If you dont have superb Reactions and can duck every Thowattempt this is going to give most people a very hard time. If they once eat 80 Damage of an FC A+BBB, they get vulnerable for Throws. Ducked Throw= 80 Damage if youre fast.

44A- Great to bait, Long Range. 44A whiff into iGDR works pretty well. Of course since they know all the bait setups.

66A- From far Range pretty safe, from close Sophie and Setsuka get their punishers. Antistep, KND.

2A+B, -14, great ch fisher, free iGDR Relaunch or WS A Mixups. Negative on NH, though. Can be spammed unless your playing Sophie/Setsuka or Crouch Throw Chars.

Throws:

-Instant Command Throw is pushing him up. Right now there is nobody who uses this till perfection. Ive never seen any Vid in which its done INSTANT. i Think Hates wants them to actually see the Duck, but i try to Mix it up. I'll hope to post some Vids soon, i can do this almost perfect from Running and other situations. Unfortuanely im still practicing it from P2.

-Instant Duck into A+G will teach them not to break just B. RO, Damage is ok. B+G Throw is ok, too. Nothing Special, though.

Lows:

-1K is cool for me. But i dont use it as much as others. But a pretty Low.

-11AA I know people think its trash, but it catches Step and gives you 70 Damage. If used wisely from Max Range, it gets way safer. Mix it up, stop after 11A for a Throw etc etc. From max Range Asta doesnt get a free 6K.


I dont need Lows too much to make people duck, instant Command Throw with Mixups works pretty well for me. Add the punishing Game, some Pokes and iTP and you have high class opportunities.
He has some major disadvanteges like some negative stuff on Hits, but i can handle this.

So yeah Cervantes can be played pretty safe. I didnt even list all the stuff he can do, he has some very hard Matchups, so i think he can be Top 5 with perfect Execution, but not Top 3.

 

[BatousaiNori]

Throws:

-Instant Command Throw is pushing him up. Right now there is nobody who uses this till perfection. Ive never seen any Vid in which its done INSTANT. i Think Hates wants them to actually see the Duck, but i try to Mix it up. I'll hope to post some Vids soon, i can do this almost perfect from Running and other situations. Unfortuanely im still practicing it from P2.

-Instant Duck into A+G will teach them not to break just B. RO, Damage is ok. B+G Throw is ok, too. Nothing Special, though.

So yeah Cervantes can be played pretty safe. I didnt even list all the stuff he can do, he has some very hard Matchups, so i think he can be Top 5 with perfect Execution, but not Top 3.

It's good to know you have more faith in the PIRATE now:)

Also, I'll PM you w/some strats I use for the Instant Command Throw. I use it w/out ducking

 

[Dullyanna]

I only like to do Cervy's command throw when I'm already in FC anyway, although you could purposely look like you're going for it from standing and throw out A+G or a mid instead, if you're feeling randy.

 

[Ceirnian]

Honestly, I've never seen a full FC C2B version pulled off ever in tournaments... but C3B ver gets done quite a bit... Rock and Asta gets natural immunity from that as well. Not only that, Asta and Rock have better range control than Hilde and at close up, Hilde will eat quite a bit of throws.

Also, isn't it a good idea to make these charts region specific?? :o

Uhh I've done them quite abit in tournaments...

Actually, I believe it's kinda right to say Hilde vs Rock and vs Asta is a fair match up.
I am playing Hilde like she would be patched, using charge not only for RO but only to keep 'em up standing (I get way more KO than RO) and it works pretty good. Well if you only use the RO combo Asta and Rock becomes a problem for her but she doesn't particularly need that to win. Besides, keep in mind no one is really playing her to her full potential : have you actually seen somone do the REAL combo against big characters ? And by real combo I mean FC C2 B/C3 B 44K C2 BB C2 AA, most of the time people only gets C3 A or do something fishy after C2 BB instead of C2 AA. No one bothered to practice it but it actually does quite a lot of damage and RO very far.
The character have yet to display her true potential IMO.

[edit] I see what you mean now Maxou. Actually that doesn't work on them. If you try to C3B 44k C2BB C2AA the C2AA misses every time. C3A works as long as you release C2BB right away, otherwise the C2AA will whiff.

One thing I did find out about Astaroth is that you can get an extra C2BB after you end with a C2AA that pushes him abit further out even if he doesn't tech. For instance do C3A C2BB C2AA and at this point, you can catch his chest with a C2BB again. Problem is that the C2AA after that whiffs, so you need to figure out an ender that works for you. I do either 8k for good wakeup options or 4B+K if I am close to ringing them out.(thanks to Krayzie for being the one to point it out when I accidentally did it to him)

 

[Maxou]

That's interesting.
Was pretty sure it worked although I never tested it my self. Some people sure did say it worked.

Still, Astaroth vs Hilde or Hilde vs Rock, is not that bad of a match up IMO, providing you know how not to base your game around the doom combo. Never had any trouble against them but the Astaroth/Rock I encountered are not the strongest. I'll be sure to test that very soon.

 

[Ceirnian]

Oh I agree, the matchup isn't as bad as people say it is. If you can prove my testing wrong with the altered combo on them, I would love to be proven wrong. Having that against them would be really nice.

 

[docvizzo]

It's good to know you have more faith in the PIRATE now:)

Also, I'll PM you w/some strats I use for the Instant Command Throw. I use it w/out ducking

Lol Nori i ALWAYS have faith in Cervantes. Its not like i dropped him once. He is and will always be my main. And since i invented the Command Throw (All hail to me :) ), i would be very suprised if you have setups i did not find till now. But feel free to pm me.

BTW Tier arguments are great, the last time i joined in an argument here about Cervy i told Tiamamt that Cervys Throwgame is weaker than in SC3 (Obvious Reasons). Then i went into Training Mod to check whether there is a way to do his Throw another way, 1 hour later: iCT was born.

Unfortunately im not finding new stuff anymore, seems like everything is known now.

 

[Maxou]

Competly off topic : I am not trying to give you false hopes, but a friend of mine playing Cervantes told me he found some new stuff (at least he didn't see it posted here and in soulcalibur.fr).

On topic :
Oh by the way, a question for you people, what do you think of Tira and Taki ?
Some people said Taki was top tier or high tier, some other said she was mid-... IMO she is mid, but I am interested in what are your reasons to put her in the high tiers.

I am playing Tira on a regular basis and she is a really interesting character, hard to use (random changes :/), but really interesting, I am pretty sure she can have a really good potential :
- very good punishers
- very good evasive moves
- good damage
- kinda good lows.
Still she has some draw backs : random changes, health loss, easy to step and it seems very hard to close distance with her.
IMO she could (not saying she is) be on the same rank as Cassandra and Sophitia, she definitively has a good potential. And can make a lot of problems for char like Siegfried and Kilik.

 

[docvizzo]

Competly off topic : I am not trying to give you false hopes, but a friend of mine playing Cervantes told me he found some new stuff (at least he didn't see it posted here and in soulcalibur.fr).

Im really curious about what your friend is talking :) If you know it., please pm me...maybe he thinks its new because France is the Anti-Cervantes Country ;). I remember in SC3 the first french Tier List listed Cervantes as Bottom or Low Tier :)

 

[hotnikkelz]

I am playing Tira on a regular basis and she is a really interesting character, hard to use (random changes :/), but really interesting, I am pretty sure she can have a really good potential :
- very good punishers
- very good evasive moves
- good damage
- kinda good lows.
Still she has some draw backs : random changes, health loss, easy to step and it seems very hard to close distance with her.
IMO she could (not saying she is) be on the same rank as Cassandra and Sophitia, she definitively has a good potential. And can make a lot of problems for char like Siegfried and Kilik.

I like tira, but she's in the lower spectrum.
She doesn't really have good punishers really. None do real damage. GS 44K short ranged and high for instance, doesn't give that much damage either. ON whiffs she can get 3B and GS 6AAAA which is good, but only in GS is dmg potential great.

Definitely has good evasive moves, and is the only reason i play her still. Her hs is poor in general, and she's not a speed demon, so it's a must have. 11K, WS B, 6K are all great.

She has damn good lows. 11B, 11A are bs -15 meaning hardly punishable vs most. 1A is safe gives combos and has HUGE range, 1K is sneaky. Her lows are so important to her.

She's not so easy to step if you've mastered how to use iWS A and 33K. Both are unsteppable, both are mid. In GS WS A is pretty much safe. The random changes is not too much of a problem...only applies in combos really...and even then u can substitute for something else. Health loss is a problem i admit. Well she's one of those who doesn't really have to close distance really. She has mid range lows 1A and 11A, and UD B, GS 66K, JS 66A, JS 6A etc.

Overall a very hard character to rank.

I think the WCM method of ranking is superior of course...but i consider this debate fun though.

 

[Impending_Doom66]

If we are indeed talking about tourney results for tiers then all the people saying Cassandra is overrated need to rethink their arguments. Cassandra seems to be a consistently high placing character in big tournemants.

 

[Chickenwing]

Nori your idea that characters need good mixup lows to win is just completely wrong. You do not need to make someone block low in order to win.

It is quite helpful if the character has good mixup lows, but it is only NEEDED if you tell yourself that YOU need it.

I'm going to say no for 2 reasons...

1: After watching those vids between you and whodat, to where 1) you make whodat duck when he's eating 1B from Algol and 2) he's eating NM's 1A......yea....um. No, that video would be visual proof that you're contradicting yourself.

2: From Neorussel's Sig from caliburforum.com before it went down. "Once you block the low, the mix-ups begins"

Also eltoshan: i would beast your setsuka, no questions asked. *Smiles* (don't take it personally...it's to build hype. people tend to take me seriously.....)

 

[MichaelJackson]

I think that Tier Lists and Matchup Rankings, while connected, are not the same thing.

For a Tier List one has to, as Hates stated in the closed thread: "...in terms of raw character evaluation I think it's incumbent upon us to try to factor out human error as much as possible."

For a Matchup Ranking I believe it would be something with a decent amount of bias as the people discussing it would have differing views on chars based on who plays the chars in their area, how good the players themselves are, how often is this character played, etc.

So the decision is now what is the purpose of this thread? A Tier List or a Matchup Ranking?

...and what, ultimately, do you want to gain from this thread? A quick reference to see who should be beating who in the hands of 'Perfect' players? Or a rough outline of how things are playing out around the world through tourney results, etc?

There are so many things to think about and so many different variations on the topic at hand that it really needs to be clarified a bit more before moving forward to avoid confusion.

-

Also Yun is top tier bitches, he da shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit yeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!
Y? CUZ I SAY HE BE!