1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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You know I have been thinking about this alot lately.

Hilde is definitely breaching grounds for a ban.

The reason why should be and is simple. In high level play which tiers are inherently based off of in any fighting game players trade damage and their is no ultimate defense where one person can completely block everything the other does. This goes for Tekken, Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, etc.
Base off that logic and common sense, because of Hilde being able to land only 1 hit and end a match like 8 times out of 10 (rough number because of like 3 caged in stages) she is basically a walking 1 hit kill monster for the most part.
 
Tiamat
You're assuming that I don't know Hilde's aGI is a TC. My point was that with focusing on A grabs, at the very least I am attempting to force the Hilde player to break them, or take the damage.

Dullyanna
A lot of moves are steppable...

Alex.J
What you fail to realize is that I never said Hilde wasn't on top. And in my previous post I sureashell wasn't comparing Hilde with Setsuka/Cervantes for the top. You're way too caught up in proving to people what is already known and that is Hilde is a great character. What I stated was some where along the lines of; that despite the consesus there is still a window of opportunity in terms of mechanics to suggest that she isn't necessary the best character.

You also went on to analyze my analysis of the glaring flaw with tier lists. And what I have concluded from your reply is that, to you a tier list is representation of the most dorminating characters in the game.

With that said let me point you to your theoratical tier list..."my previous post."

Okay this is an estimate of all the characters that have won offline tournaments posted on this site.
Thx to those people that actually post the GF results. Players that used two characters but it wasn't certain which ones used in the GF I posted one win for both chars. Players like OOF who used the entire roster but results weren't listed, no characters got a win. But then again just an estimate...

Voldo 11
Cassandra 11
Siegfried 10
Xianghua 8
Hilde 7
Amy 7
Kilik 6
Yoshimitsu 6
Lizardman 6
Mitsurugi 6
Ivy 5
Nightmare 5
Astaroth 4
Raphael 4
Cervantes 3
Algol 3
Setsuka 2
Talim 1
Taki 1
Yun Seong 1
Yoda 1
Sophie 1

It helps when results are posted with some care.
Players that kept on popping up.
Note: Linkrkc(Ivy), Ceirnian(Hilde), Saitoh(Asta), Aris(Cass), Aris(Seigfried) Thugish(Amy), Dino/Enkindu/BLDave(voldo), kilik(Asura), Neorussel(Yoshie), JimmyPikachuChoi(Xianghua), MateoGalvan(Mitsu), MysticBill/Vicious(Lizzy), Kid D Zaster(SC4 USA), OOFMATIC(SC4 Canada),
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Now ofcourse that list isn't complete, or accurate 100%, but it is a good estimate. Hilde isn't even on top.
If you're to counter argue that obviously she should be on top because of her tools alone, then that same mentality will have to be passed on to other characters aswell...including Setsuka and Cervantes. That is the logic. And then what I said was Hilde is a character that won't be dethroned anytime soon, but Kilik, Amy, and Voldo are fair game.
 
KingAce said:
You're way too caught up in proving to people what is already known and that is Hilde is a great character. What I stated was some where along the lines of; that despite the consesus there is still a window of opportunity in terms of mechanics to suggest that she isn't necessary the best character.
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Can you explain this window of opportunity in terms of mechanics that makes Hilde not the best without talking about robots?
 
Dullyanna said:
Uhhh.... yeah... but you said that bullrush could eliminate the threat of Hilde's C3 A, which it doesn't. Again, you can't just "eliminate" C3 A.
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I sure as hell didn't say that was my full proof plan either did I? Or are you suggesting that when it's time to face a hilde player you forfeit? Until I fully test every idea, I can't really share. But know this...it is possible not to get rung out.
 
I'm not saying that you should give up. What I'm trying to say that Hilde isn't just a gimmick, which is why she's top tier. Apparently there's a "Special way" to defeat her which you, and everybody else in this country hasn't found yet.

According to some foreigners, it's based on carefully turtling and proper stepping, which isn't at all easy to do in the first place. You could argue that she isn't placing well, but that's because people are only starting to realize just how good she is (Remember what happened in Socal, and BanHilde).
 
Alex.J said:
Can you explain this window of opportunity in terms of mechanics that makes Hilde not the best without talking about robots?
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Lets start with basics. Fact and opinion.
What is an opinion.
An assumption deriven by personal experience and prefrence.
What is a fact.
A constant, proven completely with the highest amount of accurancy, that any inconsistencies are nonexistant...if not theoratical.

Hilde is a character in soul calibur 4. A Fact.
Hilde is the best character in the game. An Opinion. (Alex J)
It isn't clear that Hilde is the best character in the game. A fact driven by(KingAce) an obvious lack of information to prove the statement otherwise.

From a theoratical standpoint it is more than likely if not certain that Hilde is the strongest character in the game.
Logically it is unproven, and it's a baseless assumption.

Alex J you have manage to change a discussion about the flaw of tiers, to a discussion about how great hilde is...at this point I am hoping that you realize to some degree that you simply misunderstand. And the personal perceptions you have of hilde have clearly been driving your ability to comprehend what was actually written.

On my own personal list Hilde and Algol are on the top...FYI
 
KingAce said:
Lets start with basics. Fact and opinion.
What is an opinion.
An assumption deriven by personal experience and prefrence.
What is a fact.
A constant, proven completely with the highest amount of accurancy, that any inconsistencies are nonexistant...if not theoratical.

Hilde is a character in soul calibur 4. A Fact.
Hilde is the best character in the game. An Opinion. (Alex J)
It isn't clear that Hilde is the best character in the game. A fact driven by(KingAce) an obvious lack of information to prove the statement otherwise.

From a theoratical standpoint it is more than likely if not certain that Hilde is the strongest character in the game.
Logically it is unproven, and it's a baseless assumption.

Alex J you have manage to change a discussion about the flaw of tiers, to a discussion about how great hilde is...at this point I am hoping that you realize to some degree that you simply misunderstand. And the personal perceptions you have of hilde have clearly been driving your ability to comprehend what was actually written.

On my own personal list Hilde and Algol are on the top...FYI
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You really want to nitpick don't you. This is a tiers discussion thread, we can't say that there can't be tiers because theoretically people haven't played certain characters to their highest level. We also can't consider a character not the best because WE NEED FACTS. Of course this thread is based on assumptions and opinions. If there were facts to prove these things there would be no need for a tier discussion. Good luck driving your facts in a thread based on opinions and assumptions though. You should consider changing your name to KingFacts.
 
Dullyanna said:
I'm not saying that you should give up. What I'm trying to say that Hilde isn't just a gimmick, which is why she's top tier. Apparently there's a "Special way" to defeat her which you, and everybody else in this country hasn't found yet.

According to some foreigners, it's based on carefully turtling and proper stepping, which isn't at all easy to do in the first place. You could argue that she isn't placing well, but that's because people are only starting to realize just how good she is (Remember what happened in Socal, and BanHilde).
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dully even i figured it out its obvious

MOST of Hilde's combos all start at vertical charges so what do you do to verticals?

p.s. this is not a troll
 
Most? C3A? her best one? which is horizontal, mid, gives +frames on block, tech crouches, and auto GI's mids and highs. So no, not most. Her best one is horizontal.
 
C3A also starts the doom combo. You can't step that. Plus, her C2B and C3B track 8WR and right SS, so the only semi safe way to dodge her charge Bs are to step G to the left.
 
i dont have to prove my self to you i am reporting what have found works

of course step G will work

protip: dont step to right against her verticals

and yes most are started by verticals
 
Something-Unique said:
You know I have been thinking about this alot lately.

Hilde is definitely breaching grounds for a ban.

The reason why should be and is simple. In high level play which tiers are inherently based off of in any fighting game players trade damage and their is no ultimate defense where one person can completely block everything the other does. This goes for Tekken, Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, etc.
Base off that logic and common sense, because of Hilde being able to land only 1 hit and end a match like 8 times out of 10 (rough number because of like 3 caged in stages) she is basically a walking 1 hit kill monster for the most part.
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it is more like 5/10 than 8/10. also, japanese tournaments rarely ban even infinites and deathcombos. even relatively balanced games like guilty gear have infinites and deathcombos.
 
ill say this again but:

both new characters are considered broke because we dont know how to counter them yet

IMO algol is better then Hilde but not worth a ban

because if we ban someone for being the best why not just ban all high tiers?

algol and Hilde have to be approached in a different ways

play safe against Hilde (depending on your character this may result in borderline spam against any decent Hilde my move set consists of only moves i know are safe)

get up in algols face , don't give him time to shoot bubbles
 
Alex.J said:
You really want to nitpick don't you. This is a tiers discussion thread, we can't say that there can't be tiers because theoretically people haven't played certain characters to their highest level. We also can't consider a character not the best because WE NEED FACTS. Of course this thread is based on assumptions and opinions. If there were facts to prove these things there would be no need for a tier discussion. Good luck driving your facts in a thread based on opinions and assumptions though. You should consider changing your name to KingFacts.
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Who is nitpicking me or you?

Algol*cough* is better than hilde*cough* so is Astaroth*cough*
 
Saying Astaroth is better than Hilde is... wow... that's just laughable.

I can't even comment beyond that. I can only manage a useless post because there's just no way to address something that off-target.
 
Well, arguing aside, we all basically can agree on the principal places. Such as Hilde and Algol being top of the top. And Yoda/Mina/Rock being very close to bottom. Its mainly now just about filling in the middle.

But still, as I firmly believe, winning is not tier vs tier. It is Character vs matchups. A mid tier character might have advantage over a high tier character because of match ups or certain tools.
 
Tiamat said:
it is more like 5/10 than 8/10. also, japanese tournaments rarely ban even infinites and deathcombos. even relatively balanced games like guilty gear have infinites and deathcombos.
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Well with Guilty Gear is different from Soul Calibur Hilde as in guilty gear you can actually avoid and react to those situations even when in the combo.

However after hearing about the japs which I did not know about in regards to this game and I don't know if other regions follow this rule as well then I guess their is no argument.

I will just simply main her as a serious second and use her when I need to at future tournaments.
 
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