1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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I don't understand something about the French chart that was posted... At first it seems that the characters are listed in descending order along the left hand side according to how many good match-ups they have, thereby implicitly creating a sort of tier list.... but then all of a sudden there are characters shown as having very poor matchups (Mina, Niightmare, Rock) listed above characters that are shown as having very good ones (Sophie, Voldo). Whats going on?
 
the characters in the bottom half of the list have incomplete rankings. notice that for say, kilik, all matchups have a number, but for nightmare not all matchups have a number
 
It seems relatively straightforward. There are mods for each character who presumably are at least competent with that character. They produce a list of results for each matchup they feel they know. The mods for the other characters do the same thing. For each character you'll end of with a result set. If only 1 set of results exists, use that number. If 2 exist, if possible split the difference, otherwise the 2 mods can talk about it. I'll use maxi as an example:
Johnny sez:
Maxi vs Setsuka: 4/6
etc
Then you compare the setsuke mod's value.
Setsuka vs. Maxi: 7/3

Maybe after talking about it, they settle on 3/7 in sets favor. Then these initial values are put in the chart. Of course they are all up for change as the matchups are understood better, but at least its a start. And matchups with no data are left blank or 5/5. There are pro's and con's the blank and 5/5, but that can be decided later.
 
its not a bad idea but something about it bugs me. for example

mod X knows what he's talking about
mod Y doesn't

then you get an "average" score that is messed up. the other problem is that if one says it's 5/5 and one says it's 6-4, this isn't a huge difference but if you try to average them you get 3.5-6.5 (which is used for some games). whether you wanna get into that level of detail I dunno.
 
only really good players , who proved themselves in tournaments should be allowed to speak, than it might work out.
 
Tiamat, the numbers are only a starting point. Its done in this way to get the data out and create a larger set of data for statistical purposes. I will say i'd rather keep it to discreet integer numbers, so no fractions. If it comes to that, like I said, i'd like to see the 2 mods just hash it out and the more experienced mod's score goes. After the initial set of data is done, there will of course be the following issues:
1) not all matchups done
2) errors due to lack of knowledge and experience

To address both issues, I would appoint 2-3 persons to head up a Ranking project discussion. They would be responsible for doing a thorough review of each character by starting a thread for each character and walking though the matchups. I'd let each discussion last a week and then decide if the matchup numbers would change. The committee could change, but i'd like a list of all possible committee members posted, but only 2-3 would need to participate at a time. Final scores would would be decided by the committee members, but any player would be free to give input. This addresses the concern about exp AND breadth of input.
Ideally I'd like to see a review happen once every couple of weeks. So that new information can be constantly incorporated. I do agree that EVO and nats will be useful, but I don't see how at least getting an initial matchup chart will not be useful. We can compare the initial data against the tourney results and see how it all pans out.
So for example

Ranking project team:
Aris, Johnny B, Fhwoarang, Tiamat, STD, Ceirnian, KDZ, OOF, Saitoh, and Hayate
So for example: week 1: Maxi - Initial Ranking project team members: Johnny, Tiamat, and Aris ( names out of my ass )
at the end of week 1: Maxi vs Sets, NM, Seig are changed. Rest are ok.
Week 3: Taki - New member: STD - Johnny out
at end of week 3: Taki vs Mitsu, Cass, Sophie, Ast changed. Rest are ok.

etc etc etc until all chars are reviewed.
 
IMO tier lists are a waste of time and are NEVER totally accurate. In the end it all comes down to the players in each match. Every character has tools to win. Yes some characters have more/better tools than others, but at the end of the day if a player is good enough they use the tools available to them to win. Yeah you can get a rough idea, but that is about it.
 
IMO tier lists are a waste of time and are NEVER totally accurate. In the end it all comes down to the players in each match. Every character has tools to win. Yes some characters have more/better tools than others, but at the end of the day if a player is good enough they use the tools available to them to win. Yeah you can get a rough idea, but that is about it.


lies... nobody believes in that.

when you lose you need excuses to lose... and obviously player's skill got VERY LITTLE do with it.. else how can someone admit they got beat...

it's all about blaming how broke your opponent's character is... and how your character have such a major disadvantage when facing your opponent's character.

-LAU
 
lies... nobody believes in that.

when you lose you need excuses to lose... and obviously player's skill got VERY LITTLE do with it.. else how can someone admit they got beat...

it's all about blaming how broke your opponent's character is... and how your character have such a major disadvantage when facing your opponent's character.

-LAU

Lau is spot on.
 
since we keep talking about making a chart but no one is stepping up to get started, I made a simple excel table then turned it into a text file so that I can directly upload it here.

I only put up matches pertaining to algol and nightmare for now, you guys can add/discuss/argue about my ranks and add your own for matchups i haven't ranked. mods and/or high level player with respective character can list matchups and I'll add them to the chart

how to read the chart:
Read it from left to right. For example, to see Algol matchups, look for Algol on the vertical list then move right. if algol has a 6, that means he has advantage on the character on the horizontal list directly above him, a 6-4 advantage

to keep an eye on what level you are on, highlight the character on the left then drag the bar right to make that dark, so you can see where you're looking at

warning: super ugly chart
 

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IMO Tia, both Mina and Hilde have a 6/4 Advantage over Gol,
Gol has a 7/3 bordering on 8/2 advantage on Rock.
Hilde has about a 7/3 advantage on Mina, 4/6 disadvantage on Sieg, 4/6 to 5/5 disadvantage on Rock, 4/6 disadvantage on asta, 4/6 disadvantage on yoda.
Just my opinion but that's how it comes out down under.
 
Well, I was waiting for people to say if they liked my idea. :) Maybe you could get the rest of the mods to help fill in their own versions of their charts? Then we can collate. It will be less work than you having to update every matchup. If 2 mods have different values, if the mods are of equal xp then we split the different always deferring to the lower integer value. If one of the mods is more experienced, we take the more experienced mods value.
 
IMO Tia, both Mina and Hilde have a 6/4 Advantage over Gol,
Gol has a 7/3 bordering on 8/2 advantage on Rock.
Hilde has about a 7/3 advantage on Mina, 4/6 disadvantage on Sieg, 4/6 to 5/5 disadvantage on Rock, 4/6 disadvantage on asta, 4/6 disadvantage on yoda.
Just my opinion but that's how it comes out down under.

noted, but I'd like to wait for ceirnian and/or shen yuan before I put them down, as they may have disagreements. for example, I bet ceirnian would disagree with your rank for hilde vs asta. and why sieg?

mina having advantage on algol makes me lol. does algol even need to use bubbles to beat up mina? algol is faster and does more damage than she does, while still having great zoning ability (better than hers I'd wager). is this matchup being in mina's favor totally banked on her anti bubble and CF abilities? that's all I can think of, and I can't see that being enough. also, is there a single video of this matchup in existence?

-for hilde vs algol im gonna ask alex j and ceirnian cause they are the only ones worth asking. i have a feeling they will do 6-4 hilde advantage but I'll wait for confirmation
 
wow this Thread is really really epic!

Just a question I would like to hear some opnions on. Is there any character that is plain crap? As in almost no one would be able to have any real sucsess with? Tourney-proof character ect. Ive had my theories but time after time they have been proven wrong!! :P.
 
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