1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

[WARUI_NE]

Algol vs Hilde is 4/6 in Hilde's favor imo, some may disagree but I feel Hilde has very good tools against a lot of algols main tools. Backdashing vs hilde is a lot worse than the rest of the cast because of her long range and ringout capabilities. Algol's poor step makes it harder to deal with Hilde's charge moves. Hilde has a lot of moves she can use to get around or punish the bubble shield. One of the few things in Algols favor is that you position bubbles to prevent ringouts which can be very useful in this match.

bubbles are annoying
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Hilde:

vs Asta 9-1
vs Cervantes 10-0
vs LM 10-0
vs X 10-0
vs Hilde 10-10
vs Maxi 10-0
vs Siegfried 10-0
vs Cass 10-0
vs Sophie 10-0
vs Taki 10-0
vs Yoshi 10-0
vs Mitsu 10-0
vs Zas 10-0
vs Algol 6-4
vs Amy 10-0
vs Starkiller 10-0
vs Ivy 10-0
vs Kilik 10-0
vs Mina 12-0
vs NM 10-0
vs Raph 10-0
vs Rock 10-0
vs Yun 10-0
vs Setsuka 10-0
vs Talim 10-0
vs Tira 10-0
vs Vader 10-0
vs Voldo 8-2
vs Yoda 9-1

im scared save me

 

[docvizzo]

Im 100% sure about the Lizardman, we can discuss about Amy. There is nothing Lizardman can do against a iTP, Cervantes wont get a BT B+K, but thats not a big deal. iTP>>>Crawl. Even on Hit, no Problem. Crawl A on Hit into~A+KB will even give Cervy a free BT B+K, and A+K is the biggest threat out of Crawl, since its safe. So you can get out of Crawl pressure very fast, A+B Auto GI is a tool against Cervys Mids, but damn risky against Cervantes as well, since a whiffed A+B gives Cervantes FCA+BBBB for 80 damage.

Amy again is annoying safe, so you wont be able to use Cervys good punishing game too much. 6BB can punish almost ANYthing, and her B+K Auto GI is pretty nice against chars who heavily rely on mids, just like Cervantes. Same goes for Sophitia, her 236B, 236236B, and her A+B Auto GI are pretty strong.

The ability of both to punish his staple Moves like 2A+B and 3B, which are pretty safe against the rest of the cast makes me give them a 6:4 in their favour.

 

[Millionz]

I agree with most of Nori's, Hates' and Docvizzo's (I can never spell your name right) lists. Here are some of my thoughts

vs Raph: Definately 6-4 in Cervy's favor. In this match Raph wants to keep out Cervy. Once Cervy gets into grab range Raph has a really hard time getting out of pressure. Raph is also pretty linear so as long as Cervy steps correctly he gets a free 3B launch after most whiffs. Cervy also has a good tool against prep in the form of 1B, so Raph cannot dictate his prep game as easily as he can say against NM.

vs Amy: 5-5. I'm really tempted to say 6-4 because Cervy is the only character I tend to do well against most Amys. He does more damage in general, punishes her better than most of the cast, and like Hates said he has tools to stop of her tactics. She can punish a lot of his stuff with 6BB, but imo thats more of a slight annoyance than anything else. I get more annoyed when I get 236B'ed punished by sophie. I really don't see how its any worse than 5-5. I'd say 6-4 Cervy but I'll be conservative.

vs Kilik: I really think this is 4-6 Kilik's favor. Outside of Asura there isn't really anything to punish Kilik for. iGDR's nerfed range in this game makes it really difficult to punish some of Kilik's long ranged whiffs. Asura (although heavily punishable by Cervy, JF or not) is still an annoying tool that shuts down a lot of his movelist and really forces him to use a couple moves.

vs LM: I pretty much agree with Docvizzo sentiments

vs Yoshi: 7-3. Cervy punishes Yoshi waaaaaaay too hard

 

[BatousaiNori]

yay docvizzo got the colors to work right XD

I am thinking of making a new thread and just calling it "Matchup Ranking Project" or something. I could make a private group with invite only for discussions and it would be less cluttered I'm sure, but I'd rather not keep something like this from the general user base. Even if someone isn't well known they may have something important to contribute to discussion.

- docvizzo and hates both say cervy beats lizard compared to nori saying otherwise, so for now that one will stay as is
- amy on the other hand, docvizzo and nori both say she has 6-4 advantage but hates doesn't. I know he hasn't actually said anything about it here but the Cervy player here, Millionz, tends to do well vs Amys with Cervy. It really doesn't look bad from what I've seen firsthand so I'm gonna go with Hates here.

I could be wrong on LM. If Hates/Doc are pretty sure about it, I'm pretty open minded about that one.

Hates: Good points on Algol. I had no idea 6a+k actually worked on him, I can't believe his fireball recovery is THAT bad. Good tips, noted

-In regards to Amy, I beat Amys also, but it's work compared to other chars. Hell Cervantes in general is work, but the fact Amy can spam safe moves against him puts him at more pressure to attack, and if Cervantes guesses wrong, he's gonna eat damage. Her 66B does really well against him and overall, I feel she makes you take more risks. Again, don't confuse player vs char.

-If Asta blocks 2A+B or 1K (which are staples for Cervantes), he has to guess right on the crouch throw. If you guess wrong, it's quite a lot of damage and the window isn't exactly big either. Sure, aB is a great punisher to 6K, but Asta has to take risks just like Cervantes, which is why I feel it's 5-5.

-Sisters to me are extremely overrated. I don't see how they are 6:4 on him when he can iGDR blocked 236Bs. They are poke machines, that's it. They punish mistakes. I think Cervantes punishes better with a better throw game, better overall low (1k) and longer range.

Millionz: I'm convinced Kilik is 5-5 because Cervantes has an excellent high in aB to counter Asura, as well as bK, 66K, aK. Cervantes has fantastic kicks and highs, so if you are able to shut down Asura like that, it's pretty even IMO.

 

[pineapplejuice]

shame you cant set 2 chars at each other in cpu edgemaster mode in training, i dont know if it would prove whos top tier, but would be interesting for sure

 

[Tiamat]

- millionz and docvizzo both say cervy loses to kilik 4-6 and no red flags shoot up from my view, so it will go up for now
- Seems a lot of disagreement about cervy vs cass and soph so I'll leave them out for now. I think cervantes is a better character than both of them but that doesn't necessarily mean he has advantage matchup wise (though he might).

I want more details on amy vs cervantes. The 6BB punisher point is valid, but so is the claim that cervantes does more damage. What staple mids does cervantes have that are not 6BB punishable? Other details?

pineapple: certainly wouldn't prove anything haha

 

[Millionz]

66K,3K, 3A+B, bK

Safe mids really aren't the problem. Yea she punishes 2A+B but the risk reward is so skewed in ur favor who cares?

 

[HajimeOwari]

Millionz: Yoshi can punish Cervy back and has answers to Cervy's standard WS A, aK, into mix-ups.

I'm thinking 5-5, Yoshi v. Cervy.

 

[Dullyanna]

Kilik has other tools that give Cervy issues. For example: his WS B evades a lot of mixup options after 1K on hit, and 6AAA beats the moves that beat Kilik's WS B in that situation due in part to Cervy's extra slow 2A.

 

[BatousaiNori]

Kilik has other tools that give Cervy issues. For example: his WS B evades a lot of mixup options after 1K on hit, and 6AAA beats the moves that beat Kilik's WS B in that situation due in part to Cervy's extra slow 2A.

Cervante's 1k on hit to WS BB should beat his WS B. Or he can do 1K on hit, then step the WS B which I've done lots of times. Still in Cervantes favor IMO. Kilik's WSB is gold, but it's not a surefire answer to 1K

 

[Dr. Hates]

I don't feel qualified to talk about Cervantes vs Kilik because I don't have enough experience. My general thought, however, is that Kilik is overrated.

As for Amy, consider the following:
At anything past point blank range her offense gets severely limited. She'll be doing 66A+B, 33B, 66B, 1A, etc, and precious little else. The aforementioned mids are all steppable, while Cervantes punishes 1A with WS A or FC A+BBBB spam. Moreover, if she DOES hit you with 1A (which is by far her most effective low), she's at such a disadvantage that you essentially get a 2A/throw/WS A mixup. Once she gets in, she's annoying, but if you make her work for it and play conservatively you can really screw her over. People need to remember that there's not some referee who throws a flag when you're not randomly attacking with Cervantes--his game is slow, deliberate, and reactive rather than proactive.

 

[BatousaiNori]

Moreover, if she DOES hit you with 1A (which is by far her most effective low), she's at such a disadvantage that you essentially get a 2A/throw/WS A mixup.

This is not true. She can 6B you, and if you 2A, she can do 4A and dodge it clean. You don't get a guaranteed mixup if she hits you w/1a. Trust me, I've tried it millions of times against DevilJim when we played 2 weeks ago. He would do 1a, I thought I had advantage, would do WS A and his 6B would own me, or 4A would if I did 2A instead. When you eat enough 4As (4A is unsafe, I acknowledge that), you sit there and block up close. However, if you block it, yes, WS A is free which is great.

 

[Dr. Hates]

You're flat-out wrong. Amy's 1A (hit)->6B loses to Cervantes' WS A unless you fuck up and do it way late.

 

[BatousaiNori]

You're flat-out wrong. Amy's 1A (hit)->6B loses to Cervantes' WS A unless you fuck up and do it way late.

Dude, I'm telling you, no offense but it just doesn't work. On hit, you can't even mash it out. I tried it. I wouldn't say it doesn't work unless I've extensively tried it:) Even worse, 1A (hit) to 4A WILL BEAT WS A. Try it

 

[Tiamat]

People need to remember that there's not some referee who throws a flag when you're not randomly attacking with Cervantes--his game is slow, deliberate, and reactive rather than proactive.

I'd say the same thing to you about Nightmare. (though matchup/opponent may require a change up)

I'll make a new thread with the latest version in the first post and an explanation of how to read it so that it's easy to find.

 

[Dr. Hates]

Nori: I am not making any arguments about 1A (hit) 4A. Go test 1A (hit) 6B again.

Tiamat: I think the big difference is that nightmare doesn't really have decent turtle cracking moves.

 

[Tiamat]

Nightmare has good throw range and okizeme though (from his A throw for example). He has strong mids to deter people from ducking / attacking at stupid times, so it's generally not hard for him to make the opponent block then apply throws. His 1K has good range (and + on CH into his strong WS/FC moves) even though it's weak in raw damage, and his 11B is a good low poke (can be reacted to but not as easy as the frame data would suggest). I do think Cervantes is the better character in general but I feel Nightmare is rather solid because of his damage on his mids, throw range, oki, and long range on key attacks.

In any case, I made a topic for this. http://www.8wayrun.com/f21/character-matchup-tier-project-t3110/

 

[GATOR]

Not that anyone cares about my opinion on these things...but here they are anyway

Nori:

I think Amy's 5-5ish because her range and damage (when she's not BT) kinda suck, and she has to play a slow game in order to beat Cervantes. He has tools that make some of her staples really risky, and I think she's overall overrated because of the adjustment period required before you can really hang with her.

With Astaroth, Cervantes can punish most of his decent moves pretty darn hard, and he's altogether faster than the big guy. You can lock him down with moves that leave you at neutral, etc.

Astaroth match-up is in favor of cervy for exactly the reasons mentioned. Punishment, speed, and to SOME extent even damage is all in cervy's favor. Not to mention that astaroth has issues against characters that have a REASON to "twitch duck" since it messes with his throw game. And cervantes has one of the best while rising/fc games in the game. All these don't bode well for asty. Its probably about a 6-4 just because I stay conservative with match-ups since playstyle has such a huge role that isn't really taken into account (can't) with a match-up list.

And amy is a 5-5 offline, but probably 6-4 or so online (not that its being taken into account here..). Her gi moves can be a pissoff for cervy if you are getting predictable but she doesn't have much that can't be handled by cervy. It can be a bitch to get of the ground sometimes, but its like that for any character against her. Cervy does do a lot of damage and she doesn't give you a reason to duck all that often unless you want to(talk about a weak throw game o.O). But her speed can give cervy a headache at times the same way it gives anyone else a headache.

Millionz: Yoshi can punish Cervy back and has answers to Cervy's standard WS A, aK, into mix-ups.

I'm thinking 5-5, Yoshi v. Cervy.

I's say its like a 5.5-4.5 in cervy's favor with yoshi, but since nobody likes decimals I'm not sure to round up or down on this one. My point really is just the match-up ends up being a stalemate of whomever is able to get more throws to land, force more ill advised crouches, etc. If yoshi goes 100% on the offensive he is going to have some problems but if played defensively and instead reacts more instead of forcing reactions then the match-up isn't a blowout for cervy. Now if the yoshi is going in and getting himself punished by using tons of unsafe moves, getting unblockable's sidestepped, NEVER hitting imcf, etc... then of course cervy is gonna win (but the same can be said with any match-up almost..its just cervy has really good punishment tools against yoshi that make throwing out ifc3k something to reconsider).

I don't feel qualified to talk about Cervantes vs Kilik because I don't have enough experience. My general thought, however, is that Kilik is overrated.

As for Amy, consider the following:
At anything past point blank range her offense gets severely limited. She'll be doing 66A+B, 33B, 66B, 1A, etc, and precious little else. The aforementioned mids are all steppable, while Cervantes punishes 1A with WS A or FC A+BBBB spam. Moreover, if she DOES hit you with 1A (which is by far her most effective low), she's at such a disadvantage that you essentially get a 2A/throw/WS A mixup. Once she gets in, she's annoying, but if you make her work for it and play conservatively you can really screw her over. People need to remember that there's not some referee who throws a flag when you're not randomly attacking with Cervantes--his game is slow, deliberate, and reactive rather than proactive.

You're flat-out wrong. Amy's 1A (hit)->6B loses to Cervantes' WS A unless you fuck up and do it way late.

WS A should be winning out since 6B is a high... just double checked in training...and yes...you have to do it WAAAY late to mess it up.

 

[wowkthnx]

setsuka, yoshimitsu, voldo, ivy, and hilde are the top five.

yoshi because of his insane mind game, setsuka because of her speed and punishing power, ivy due to her versatility, voldo because he's evasive and unorthodox, and hilde due to her great combos and crazy ring-out game.

 

[m216xlegendx]

Tier list arent made through "top players". They are made from tournament results. Real tiers cannot even be made till nationals are over.

3 Things are for sure and you can quote me on this,

hilde,cassandra,yoshimitsu will be placing very well in every tournament.

I said this about 6 monthes ago........
watched evo yesterday SC4 awsome, so manny hilde haters now its funny.