1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Voldo can ONLY play Amy at range. This also applies to Soph and Cass. Anything else and I basically get interrupted or punished, unless I guess right. Voldo can win....but its not the same Voldo that would play against the rest of the cast.

OR listen to SU. He seems to Post alot, and is adamant Tournament Results dictate Character Rank and nothing to do with the Player.
 
Renki said:
-For Asta, you can probably try NinjaCW or Cepzeu

-For Vader, I guess JustKill(?)

-I guess another Hilde could be KDZ or MichaelJackson?

-You can probably try asking Jimmypikachuchoi for X

-For Yunseong, Stryder?
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Noted!

D.I.N.O said:
OR listen to SU. He seems to Post alot, and is adamant Tournament Results dictate Character Rank and nothing to do with the Player.
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I still don't understand in what world u think ur opinion means more than mine in regards to Sophitia when I have the Sophitia right next door so to speak. If the other two Sophitia's had matchups that were at 5:5 then it would cancel itself out. Until then I could care less for the opinion of someone who does not main Sophitia or is doing anythine with her. The same goes for Ivy.

Stick to Voldo that's where u can jump in and state ur thoughts or talk about Sophitia vs. Voldo or Ivy vs. Voldo. Don't impose ur opinion on Kilik vs. Sophitia when ur not even notable for either or and especially if u have no real argument.

Last but not least stop being ignorant. I thoroughly explained where all the methods I used are coming from.
This is no lone shark idea but instead a method to eliminate a thousand random opinions hence ur input on characters u do not use.

Vincent said:
If Kura and Omega don't think their characters are low tier you shouldn't just ignore it.
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Of course I won't. That would be ignorant and I have yet to ask them for their own matchup charts. Again everyone's matchup chart in the finalized list will play a role in cancelling out etc.

Lets say some people may not like the idea can anyone truly argue with it being just a random method looking at the names on the listing if not all. Thats the real question.
 
That's BS. You try to say that'd be ignorant of you, but look at the impression you give:

Something-Unique said:
For example I would assume Omega would have Zasalamel as top tier but we all know that isn't true. That guy is just simply a beast and he can make some matches look that way with his superb reaction. Or in other cases Kura who is another player with unexplainable reaction.
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We all know that isn't true? As if it's perfectly okay to just rule out the possibility of anything other than your preconceived notions. Or even better, you say, "Unexplainable reaction." Wow. So because you can't understand it, that means the potential for the character is still limited.

Then you want to tell Dino he has no say on the Sophi-Voldo matchup. But, it's not like you know he has played me in that matchup in 3 different tournaments. Oh wait, nevermind, I haven't gone out to any major tournaments for SC4, so that means I'm a terrible player automatically, and nothing I can possibly say about Sophi would matter, right? It's just so obvious. How about this. Maybe credibility blinds people. Yeah, you know, the truth doesn't always walk around in formal suits showcasing their achievements. Sometimes you can just find it for yourself.

Anyway, I'm not actually interested in your response to this. Such attitudes with authority is something to be ashamed of. I won't be returning to this thread, just wanted to express myself :)
 
Vincent:

Lol! See u later. I won't miss u.

I stand by what i said for Dino. He does not main Sophitia or main Kilik and cannot overide the opinion of the respective players.

Its the same thing as me arguing that Ivy beats such an such just cause she looks like it even though there are three people with more credibility and knowledge than me on that matter.

Why can I admit I know my place but people like u get sensitive on the matter. In reality I can only speak my opinion on Kilik vs. ????. You see how that works if where talking about being accurate.

Stop being butt hurt!

For the record those comments in regards to Omega and Kura were compliments to them not an insult like u seem to be attempting to turn it into.
 
"for the record"

Just because you haven't seen me play Sophie, Or Kilik, Or Mitsu, Or Taki, or Maxi, Or Rock, Or Setsuka, Or Amy, Or Ivy, Or Yoshi, Or Cervy....

In a tourney...

Doesn't mean I dont know about them.

You still don't know what you're talking about. Just because you play one Sophie player doesn't mean you have the matchup down. You have to be kidding me.

I've played Kilik (Nizer, BLDave, Ryujin) I've played Sophies (Jinmaster, SoW, Vints). I know whats up. That said, me playing said players/characters doesnt mean I have it all figured out. Same should be said to you.

All you have to look at things on paper, and its crystal clear. Sophie has an easier Time against the cast than Kilik. So you can Asura on time?! So what. That can be said about any character with an auto-gi.

All you have to realize all of Kiliks good stuff requires a Good Guess....while Sophie can do SG damage or Real damage without having to mix anything up. Its that simple.

I hope you and Ramon have great battles. That doesn't mean Kilik is better than Sophie. Get it through your head.
 
DINO: I think the miscommunication is that everybody and their mother is going to say something different. Don't get me wrong, it's wonderful that we are even HAVING arguments over tiers, cause SC3 sucked so hard, we knew who was fucked up and who wasn't within 3 months. A year and a half later, still having a time agreeing on top 5, which is great.

I totally support SU's idea actually of having 2-3 best players of their respective char, in tournaments, who have traveled, to give an opinion. That doesn't mean only 2-3 people know what they are talking about, or only those 2-3 are good, but if EVERYBODY chimes in, you have continuing madness. I only main Cervantes, I have disagreements on PLENTY of these matchups, but we will get nowhere if we don't weed out certain opinions.

As for Kilik vs Sophie, I can argue easily that Kilik is better, simply because he has better, safer range. Sophitia has to work much harder, even on paper. Asura is just too good to be ignored, no matter how brainless it may seem to be sometimes, but then again, Sophitia's Auto GI is pretty brainless also. However, one is clearly better than the other. Kilik's throw game is retarded, with the command A throw leading to 76 damage and most of the time, a RO? Asura isn't just about "on time" but it jumps over lows, which is gigantic if you think about it. I'm very comfortable against Sophie/Hilde doing lows on their Auto GIs, but Kilik makes you think even more, which sucks.

Again, this is just my opinion. There might be others who either main Sophie/Kilik who disagree, which is fine.
 
Kilik has a ton of evasive moves, that sophie could only dream about. This argument is absurd to even discuss...
Asura doesn't just auto gi mids, it jumps over lows/throws, ducks highs, has stupid damage and SC dmg, and tracks every which way...and then there is all this other shit.

Anyways Nori, where's Cery's match-up list?
 
Tiamat said:
Just wanted to point out that it's more a matter of who is the best Siegfried *at playing Asta matchup*. Player Y may be better overall but sucks in Asta matchup compared to player X who plays well against asta but not so well against many other characters.
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Exactly.

Having a good player to argument is good, but i understand why this tier and matchup discussion will always fail :

First, you have to take a good player, with good overall technique, reaction
Second, he have to apply the best things to do on a matchup
Third, his opponent have to be as same

But wait, who knows REALLY the exact way that a matchup have to be played, and even who are sure that there is no other way, no other things that exist and nobody notice or tried??

All we can just do, is to take all person considerations, and make a average judgement, i don't think there is an other accurate way, cause we will never find the true, it will change every time with new experience.

As for Korean, Dominican, Japanese, all have different experiences, and their judgement can be very helpful.
 
asta vs seig: u punish seig 3 with 6a because on ch 6a guarantees a JF throw attempt and u can also do 6ab. this keeps seig doing 3 then taking 6a on nc. when he starts doing this u can now JF throw attempt after 3 instead of a nc 6a. even after blocked ws asta 6a trades w/ seig CH k but the adv on ch 6a is so great that asta still gets a free JF throw attempt.
 
Algol v Tom Brady is 9-1

Edit: Here's some video proof:

Also, I believe that Apprentice v Tom Brady is 8-2, as supported by this:
 
TomBrady said:
asta vs seig: u punish seig 3 with 6a because on ch 6a guarantees a JF throw attempt and u can also do 6ab. this keeps seig doing 3 then taking 6a on nc. when he starts doing this u can now JF throw attempt after 3 instead of a nc 6a. even after blocked ws asta 6a trades w/ seig CH k but the adv on ch 6a is so great that asta still gets a free JF throw attempt.
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6A on CH is like +2 advantage, you have nothing guaranteed after.
 
Wow the Asta vs Sieg discussion got a bit too heated ~

NinjaCW: I don't think anyone posted that you can mash out of JF throws (unless you can hit a button 10 times in one second. If you can, you are better off playing Starcraft instead of SC4) ... we *assume* certain things in matchup discussions such as really high level players can break regular throws and JF throws with similar success. I mean Tekken players train to break the right throw by looking at which arm(s) of opponent's character is used to throw !!! That is way harder. Also I think the guess ratio being 3-to-1 is exaggerated ... I'd say 3-to-2. If you're landing big hits like 66[K], CH 6B and 3 all the time, I'd say ... play against better players?

Sacharja: "Sieg WANTS to be next to Asta, despite him dominating much more at mid." is not really a logical claim. I mean, I can see Sieg dashes in to throw Asta but I don't see the reason to do it all the time because Sieg truly has advantage over Asta at mid range. Also the Koreans players can B+K some horizontal hits on reaction. I would also have to say Saitoh is a bit out of your league =P
 
@Foxbot : I only commented on the mashing throw escape thing because of what Offbeat Ninja said. And he gets hit by these attacks I commented on as well quite a bit and everyone on this site considers him a good player. I hit a lot of players with these moves but I don't even attempt to hit people with stuff like 66[k] LOLOL

Overall though, I was just commenting on it. Players will take what they will from what I say but in the end it's just my opinion on that particular match up and how I play in general. I will agree at mid range Asta has some issues but close range Asta dominates him because of damage potential from guesses.
 
Foxbot said:
Sacharja: "Sieg WANTS to be next to Asta, despite him dominating much more at mid." is not really a logical claim. I mean, I can see Sieg dashes in to throw Asta but I don't see the reason to do it all the time because Sieg truly has advantage over Asta at mid range. Also the Koreans players can B+K some horizontal hits on reaction. I would also have to say Saitoh is a bit out of your league =P
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Nothing illogical about that. Considering both characters have to be close to their opponent for the majority of their effective damage output. Its only natural for most of the fight to take place at that distance. Siegs midrange game mainly serves the purpose of keeping Asta from effectively getting in while at the same time limiting his spacing options. Basically, its to determine when the fight will be taken to closerange. There is no formula that forces players to act that way all the time, of course. But more often than not it will end up being that way, judging from my observation and experience at least.
Point taken for B+K. I guess for some horizontals its perfectly possible to learn and execute, including some of Astas. I still dont think itll get a meaningful amount of screentime in this matchup, tho.

As for Saitoh. Id say youre a bit early to say that. Not saying youre wrong, mind you. Im not the kind of player to put myself above others before proving it (unless theyre evidently scrubs)... however, I dont do it the other way around either. We will see.
 
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