Anti-character and match ups

Anti-character

according to the frame data the FASTEST prep A (3b/44ab prep A, not counting sea B because if they can stuff the initial prep a then it's useless) trades with i13.....

.....meaning that Amy's i11 would hit Raphael out of prep everytime. So will Yoshi's crap. and wtf is MCF on yoshi? For that matter, wtf is igdr on Cervy?

...o_o....we need to know when prep will work, and when it wont, seriously..o_o...it's like none of us are prepared.

Ruiner
 
Anti-character

I know that that i11 crap SHOULDN'T hit...but like I said...I've NEVER been 6BB (AmY) out of Prep without Clash (and I've played this matchup hundreds of times) which is why I keep asking someone to double-check the posted frame data (I only play 2 hours / wk and tournaments so i don't have time or I would).

MCF is Manji Carve Fist 2aB (aka JFLJ for Just Frame Low Jab from back in the day)
iGDR is Instant Geo De Ra or whatever the hell the spinny shoot yourself across the stage move for Cervy
 
Anti-character

....My whole understanding of frame data and it's application to Raphael is all screwed up now. This doesn't make sense.

I can't figure it out in training mode because I can't get 3b to be blocked by amy and THEN have her counter with 6bb....
 
Anti-character

if I remember correctly, record amy 6BB then have action 1 - block action 2 - recorded

something like that (it is a lot easier with 2 people :-p )
 
Anti-character

piggy said:
if I remember correctly, record amy 6BB then have action 1 - block action 2 - recorded

something like that (it is a lot easier with 2 people :-p )
Click to expand...

no the AI doens't do it seamlessly.

Record 3~prepA with raph, then try to stuff with Amy's 6BB.

I've been sophie'd AA'd out, faster than raph's 3~prepA ONLINE, which means it's at least mashable on the opponant's part... but luckily its is a high (like amy 6BB), so SEA A or even prep A+B is entirely possible. The only problem is if the opponant decides to either stuff with a fast high, or do a TC (which in this case both amy and sophie have quite a few moves that do) vs raph's options of either prep A or himself TCing. I'd say the risk-reward is fair and not outrageously bad OR good.

Most characters with quick highs i12 and under definately means that prepA should be used moderately (hilde's 6a+k, kilik 6AAA.. etc ?).
 
Anti-character

piggy said:
I know that that i11 crap SHOULDN'T hit...but like I said...I've NEVER been 6BB (AmY) out of Prep without Clash (and I've played this matchup hundreds of times) which is why I keep asking someone to double-check the posted frame data
Click to expand...

Are you keeping in mind that not all Prep transitions are equal? Prep from SEA on block turns Prep A into an i11, where the standard 3 blocked (0 frames) -> Prep A is i13. I'm pretty sure that SEA -> Prep A will trade with Amy's 6BB, and you have plenty of time to get the Prep B combo. The Prep transition frames are all in the Wiki but I didn't group them together (3 is in vertical attacks, 44A is in 8wr, etc).
 
Anti-character

Yeah, I was keeping that in mind...

It may just be people aren't punishing fast enough in tournaments, and when they get hit a couple times, they just stop doing it all together...

I dunno
 
Anti-character

One thing to keep in mind against amy's 1KA (the move where 2nd hit is advantage to amy on BLOCK, as well as tracks) is that it's a high and 4'able after blocking the first hit ... however you can only combo with 4~prepBBB:B...as prepA seems to whiff against BT'd opponants hit by 4 (or it could be amy's hitbox, but i'm almost certain that 4 on hit doenst' knock the opponant far away.
 
Anti-character

What about 4B, SEA B, BBB:B? Is this also bad because the shakeable stun is THAT SHAKEABLE?

I also overheard Amy to Amy player advice from a very good Amy, he said to him

"1KA/1AK? wtf ever the amy move that's advantage on block, don't use it" ....guess that 2nd hit that's high is THAT punishable...but then again, the top Amy's I played, THEY DIDN'T USE IT. So yeah o_o...

Ruiner
 
Anti-character

Just something you should be aware of:

Cass 2B+K can go under Prep A. For example after Cass blocks Raph's 3 all of her other moves will lose to Prep A but her 2B+K will go under it as well as Prep B... this happens for some of his other Prep transitions if I recall correctly.
 
Anti-character

Prep B is high, anything that remotely TC's will go under it.

but under Prep A? THAT'S a problem....hmmm....

Cass 2B+K is the TCing stun on CH fast attack...I used that with Cass a bunch when I was playing with her......does prep VE work it? We need a whole thread dedicated to what every character can do to screw Raphael outta prep and how to counter it...IN PREP.

I think Taki's the only character that actually just shuts prep down completely. Don't forget, even with prep being turned off, you still have it for combo's.

Ruiner
 
Anti-character

RE - Voldo 1B

Like Cervy's 1B, this move is solid anti-prep; however, it can be stepped with VE.
 
Anti-character

Ruiner, the 4B~SEA B combo is very shakeable as long as they're doing it. I've had no success with it against anyone who knows how raph combos. Maybe you can try it once in a while since some people anticipate BBB:B and don't shake to make sure.

Cassie's 2B+K is very annoying when applied intelligently. You can technically step it with VE if she does it to counter prep A. My friend who plays Cass either waits for prep A on block or use 2B+K to CH my VE attempts, which is probably the most troublesome application of the move I can think of. If the Cass player is familiar with prep and the match up you will always be at the receiving end of this move.
 
Anti-character

From Hudathan


"Cassie's 2B+K is very annoying when applied intelligently. You can technically step it with VE if she does it to counter prep A. My friend who plays Cass either waits for prep A on block or use 2B+K to CH my VE attempts, which is probably the most troublesome application of the move I can think of. If the Cass player is familiar with prep and the match up you will always be at the receiving end of this move."

...but...

...ugh...

..umm...

yeah...vs Cass, we're FUCKED.

Ruiner
 
Anti-character

Hud, even Pendragonsfall(Probably one of the best Raphael players in the country, next to you and Trolt) said he picks other characters, then MENTIONED all the Cassandra's and Amy's you'll see in tournaments.

Without prep...you really think you can outplay a good Cass player? All that punishment...4bb:A ringouts? ugh...x_x...

Ruiner
 
Anti-character

There are other things you can do against Cass. That match up isn't as hard as say Amy in my book. Cass has her limitations too regarding what she can do, so it's not completely one sided even if she has a move that can shut down prep. There are characters who can shutdown prep and also beat you up at the same time, those I fear a lot more. This game has a bit of Super Turbo balance to it in the way that some characters are often countered by others, having a bad match up isn't something only raph deals with.
 
Anti-character

I naturally have a hard time with Cervantes/Ivy/Astaroth users, I wish I had more experience with GOOD Cassandra's but honestly I've played few....

The Raphael vs Amy matchup is really hard for me though, again, you're simply outclassed in every single way except range.

Ruiner
 
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