Asta Match-up List

[Saitoh]

Well I hesitated to reply Darkslayer as it seems very obvious you either here to troll or to vent some rage.
Thx for the real infos on the Ivy vs Astaroth MU tho. I'll study this more with Malek asap.

Guys,

how can Astaroth have any bad MUs besides Aplha, Algol, Mitsu and cervantes ?

People don't know how to play against astaroth?
Thats bc there IS no real way to play against him, you either guess right or die.
Just grab, GB, whiffpunish and win. With his GB dmg you get at least 1 free round, sometimes even 2.

Seriously this character is so good, how can you act like he is bad?
With his GB, throws and general dmg, it's really hard to give him bad or even MUs.

Just in case you're being serious, I'd like to answer this.
First you can add Natsu to this list as it's one of the most, if not the hardest match-up for Astaroth.

Then about the playstyle against Astaroth. Of course there's one !
Just look at how he gets damage and win rounds. Grabs / wall and RO pressure / GB. That should gives a hint or two on what you should focus when fighting him.
I'm working on a guide on how to approach this match-up since a lot of my people have trouble with him, but I may be doing it in english in the end. Looks like it's needed.

And I dont think my character is bad, I think he's limited somehow in his gameplan. But still very capable of doing great and winning tournaments since once you're in the opponent head, the damage adds up very quickly. Fear is quite a factor, that's for sure.
But I'm glad to have 1 round and half for FREE in each match, that's quite unfair actually

 

[SatanaXXX]

LOL.

Seriously, I think that who says that Asta is "uber strong" doesn't really know how to fight him.
He's always been a mindgame heavy character, if Asta guesses right (or contitions you to guess wrong) he wins, but that's not about tiers' you've just been beaten by another, human, player.

The main issue with the Golem is that he has very limited options, few strategies, unlike many top tiers in the roster.

You say mixup can kill you easilly?
Let's talk about it:
-throws: you can guess right and break 'em for 5dmg, you can crouch 'em and punish, you can backdash 'em and punish;
-mids: all of Asta's good mids are pretty linear and low damaging: bullrush, 4K (short range and throw escape later), 4B, 22A (+2 on hit =>ridiculous for Asta, punishable, short range).

Big counter hits?
Let's talk about this too:
-6B: i20, linear as hell, crappy on block... can be step punished or anticipated soooooo easilly;
-6K: i17, -14 on block (certain char can rape him i.e. Pyrrha, Omega, Alpha, Cerv and so on), linear as fuck, short range, on NH it's like +2... wow again, on CH it has random guaranteed options;
-6A, A wow it's i13 but shorter than Mitsu's 2A, not hit-confirmable, the second is high and can be duck-raped, the first one alone is pointless, -12 on block too, and the guaranteed damage is, guess what? Techable.
-3K, A first hit is very linear, the second is easilly duck-rapable, the mixup with (A) can be stopped with easy JG. Close to ring edge or wall is great, ok, but is it worth the risk?;

Punishing whiffs or moves?
Here comes the best part:
-66B : Asta's best punisher, i16/17, HIGH, on hit leaves you at the marvellous +0. Since it's High you can't punish low recovering moves;
-K: errr... ok;
-66K: i18, great advantage on hit +10 but no knockdown, but look at that, it's i18, most of the roster can do the triple of the damage punishing -18 moves;
-66KBE: i18, nice damage but still, you have to spend meter;
-Throws: i17, great damage but... High and techable, nothing guaranteed;
-22B/BE: meant only for whiff punishing, the first randomly whiffs and is not reliable, the second is awesome, but you have to anticipate a lot, the move is very very slow.

Guard Break tools:
here Asta is actually great, he's got amazing tools, has good combos, expecially with walls close.
This is ok vs noob to average opponents. Against real players, you have to forget:
22B: stepped easilly /JG on reaction, heavy punishment coming, you have to try it only in forced block situations, still risking JG;
44 (A), 4 (B): forget 'em, JG easy as hell;
22K: nice, but SHORT and slow;
4A, 44B, 4B: nice but they take a lot of time to GB.
66(K): probably the only tool still working against pros, still is step-punishable and JGable, you have to be careful.


All the above not to whine for Asta, but just to put some light on the tools that maybe a lot of people, who is getting raped by Asta, overstimate a LOT.

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

Anyways, i don't really care about MU numbers, since at the end it doesn't matter, you have to play against those chars anyway. It's good for peoples ego though, you can always use it as an excuse.
But if we are doing it, we should do it right.

You are serious about this darkslayer?


Anyway, yeah of course you don´t care about match ups if you play only strong characters in a game... I remember your "mains" in SCIV very well... Kilik, Ivy, Amy... I mean come on... But there are not only top tier characters in a game right?... You should know since Ivy isn´t a monster like she was. ;)

And of course there is/are general tactics against Asta that people should use when fighting against him. Heck, some of those "tactics" are actually more than 10 years old, there are as old as SC is actually! Like doing random/anticipating ducks to avoid his strong throw mixups ups and punish him hard for every whiffed throw or try to stay away from the edge of the ring, pressure him at close distance and the list goes on...

Just saying.

 

[docvizzo]

Dark Slayer classico up in here!

 

[EyeofCalamity]

@Jag: Welp. Guess we're gonna have to disagree there. If you wanna discuss the MU with me more you're free to PM me about it.

Oh I dunno if im the only one who's on this....but I feel Gloomy tira can give the big guy problems.

 

[WolfLoneThe]

Oh I dunno if im the only one who's on this....but I feel Gloomy tira can give the big guy problems.

Who doesn't she give problems to?

 

[DarkSlayer]

@Saitoh & All Astaroth players

I'm not here to troll or rage about asta, BUT i kinda rage about players whining about their characters.
And i think all the Chars are actually good in SCV, so i really can't see this anymore.
I think Astaroth is a really good char, so if i see you whine i sure get a bit angry.
Im here to get the MUs right, bc i don't think Astaroth is as bad as some of you think he is.
I'm sorry if you feel offended.

LOL.

Seriously, I think that who says that Asta is "uber strong" doesn't really know how to fight him.
He's always been a mindgame heavy character, if Asta guesses right (or contitions you to guess wrong) he wins, but that's not about tiers' you've just been beaten by another, human, player.

Funny you guys think i don't know how to play against astaroth, while all i do is doing MU research and practice all day for every char. And you think i won't do it for the character which one of the best players in my country mains? I was already ver good against astaroth is SC4, like GI ing 4(B) and 22B. Pressure him at close even at disatvantage, in fact i won my very last FT5 against Jag 5:0.
+ I play Astaroth myself, i know him very well.

Sure it's about mindgames, it's always about mind games.
But you're not really right, for instance, if i guess right i get 50 dmg if i guess wrong i lose 130.
Actually that is where tiers and MUs really come from! Mixups and risk/reward. So it DOES matter what kind of mind games you're playing, it's not that easy : you guess right you win, you guess wrong you lose - it's even!!
Bc if i guess right, i can beat Alpha with dampierre.
I'm gonna reply to the rest of your post in my next post, i don't want this post to become to long.

You are serious about this darkslayer?


Anyway, yeah of course you don´t care about match ups if you play only strong characters in a game... I remember your "mains" in SCIV very well... Kilik, Ivy, Amy... I mean come on... But there are not only top tier characters in a game right?... You should know since Ivy isn´t a monster like she was. ;)

And of course there is/are general tactics against Asta that people should use when fighting against him. Heck, some of those "tactics" are actually more than 10 years old, there are as old as SC is actually! Like doing random/anticipating ducks to avoid his strong throw mixups ups and punish him hard for every whiffed throw or try to stay away from the edge of the ring, pressure him at close distance and the list goes on...

Just saying.

I'm serious about this.
Yes i did play good chars, but not bc they were good.
I didn't even know they where good when i started, ask Doc (but you know that).
So please don't try to constitue it that way.

They also had their bad MUs, but i NEVER complained about MU or Chars.
I fact i always lost against Ivy, which was a bad MU for Amy.
But i respected Malek, Scud and Ring as better players. Didn't think i lost bc of her.
Thats what you and your brother did all the time , like you would only lose if the MU is bad or the char is good.

Also i play a lot of chars very good and understand their game, even more in SCV , so i see the game from another view. I do MUs for all chars. I don't compare everything with just one char.
If you wouldn't hesistate to play me more, you would understand better how i see the game.

I STILL don't care about numbers, even if i play SCV Ivy.
Why would i? I doesn't help me in the match , if the numbers are 4:6 or 6:4.

PS: SA MOD feel free to delet my post's, if you think it's offtopic or provocative.

 

[Party Wolf]

What is wrong with you people 0_o

 

[Age_of_Truth]

You are all noobs.

Everyone thinks their own character only has 4:6 or 5:5 matchups unless it's against Raph or maybe ZWEI.

Most characters have spam or backstep-3B mixup. Asta has bullrush or throw mixup.

I still don't see the point in TC discussion here.

Arguing if it's 6:4 or 4:6 won't really benefit anyone but might get you guys annoyed with each other for a while.

If you really want an accurate matchup score, you'd need to do some serious number-crunching and statistical analysis. Which you can if you like, but it will get far too complicated long before you reach a conclusion.

A simpler analysis: Ivy players fear losing to a random 22B BE. Astaroth players feel like they can't do anything except throw out stuff and hope that something eventually hits.

Conclusion: figuring SCV matchups is hard because everyone fears the increased guesswork factor in SCV. In other words, fewer mindgames oer round => less control over result => every matchup seems bad or even.

P.S. Noobs

 

[Kalas]

The "wave of whine" has finally reached the Astaroth SA...
Come with us Astaroth players! Follow the route of the Ivy players, the Leixia players, the Siegfried players. Follow us!!! It's nice there! Spread the whine!
...
...



Astaroth in low mid? Isn't that a little bit out of order in relation to other characters? What tier categories are ZWEI or Raphael in, if Astaroth is lower mid? Super super super low?

Dark Slayer is very provocative, but he's definitely got a point.

I'm starting to believe that these MU discussion are a curse rather than something that one can benefit from.

 

[Ring]

66(K): probably the only tool still working against pros

That's probably because it has a really bizarre hitbox. I always thought this move was kinda retarded, launching me out of quick step and even when my character was behind Asta. At least it's easy to JG/GI it on reaction.

 

[Saitoh]

Good Lord, that escalated quickly.
I'm back in my civilized country where at least I can have a discussion without having some angry mob coming at me, poor Astaroth player, for no reason.
Heatens !

Au revoir !

 

[docvizzo]

Au revoir !

Saitohs comback into the soul calibur world:

 

[Inori DWF]

I'm glad people at least started talking about Astaroth. My only wonder is where the hell you guys were before? Anyways, I will not be deleting any messages because none of them are actually offensive (except maybe Age of Truths. Be a bit more careful in the future), and have lead to actual decent discussion.

Now then, you want my opinion? I think the overly pessimistic tone of the SAs is becoming childish. It's not a bad thing to know where your character is weak, but people focus so much of their mind to revealing everything that's wrong with their character, so they can get everyone's condolences when they do bad, and everyone's praise when they do well. Why not take the drive you have for making your character seem bad, and put it towards the study of enhancing the character's strengths? How about doing equal parts testing for weaknesses and strengths? This "feel sorry for me because my character sucks" mindset needs to end. That being said however, the hostile/angry attitude towards people with the problem mentioned above isn't the way to go. Angry posting does nothing but breed more angry posting from everyone else.


As the mod: I would like to see more discussion, but we are reaching dangerously close to a full-on flame war. Remember to keep it civil please. Please do not post with a head full of steam. It will cloud your judgment.

 

[Inori DWF]

If you guys have personal matters to discuss, then please use the PM system. I will NOT have personal arguments in the SA.

 

[SatanaXXX]

That's probably because it has a really bizarre hitbox. I always thought this move was kinda retarded, launching me out of quick step and even when my character was behind Asta. At least it's easy to JG/GI it on reaction.

It's like that since SC1.
You can actually punish it, just have to be careful that your pg hurtbox is outside of Asta's hitbox: i.e. Night's 88B works well, a well timed tip range step, 3B too.

A good Asta will do the move in chaotic situations/wakeup to avoid that, though

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

It's like that since SC1.
You can actually punish it, just have to be careful that your pg hurtbox is outside of Asta's hitbox: i.e. Night's 88B works well, a well timed tip range step, 3B too.

A good Asta will do the move in chaotic situations/wakeup to avoid that, though

Yep, it had always a strange hitbox.

@Inori

Hey my post wasn´t really personal, it was filled with facts but whatever...

 

[Age_of_Truth]

...none of them are actually offensive (except maybe Age of Truths.

Was just a joke friend, was meant to defuse the bomb rather than blow it up.

Everyone can just pick Patroklos, then there will be no more whining.

 

[SatanaXXX]

I refuse to use an MTV VJ, even if he's so wonderfully cheap

 

[Asodimazze]

I just read that your fellow italian collegue beat Kira in Casuals 11:1, might be good to get his opinion too.

I have a lot of experience against Cervantes (I play offline every 2 days against the mad Lintinisi, one of my best friends and a very good Cervantes) and Kira didn't know the matchup well.

Imho the MU is 6-4 for Cervantes; I'm not good when explaining my ideas about the MUs but I'll try anyway:
If Cervantes uses well his AutoGIs he blocks nearly every move I have, and is really hard to put pressure on him.
He also has a really scary punisher for ducked throws (WSB+K) so I can't use much grabs and when he has 2 bars I can't even let him block bullrush because he can punish it with CE.
3B is amazing against Astaroth, K is not enough to stop Cervantes from spamming it and from certain distances it isn't even punishable.
Another big problem imho is 1ab, because it stops 66K BE, catches every 22b attempt and most of the times Cervantes can use it for free, because of 3B no one can random duck against Cerv. It's true that the move leaves Cerv at -4, but that doesn't mean much against Astaroth.
The only points in Astaroth's favor imho are the range, and the fact that Cervantes can't spam aB like he does with other characters, because 66b and CE will punish it from every distance.

Here is what I think about all the MUs:

Asta VS Aeon :6-4
Asta VS Algol : 5:5
Asta VS Alpha : 4:6
Asta VS Cervantes : 4:6
Asta VS Dampierre : 7:3
Asta VS Ezio : 6:4
Asta VS Hilde : 6:4
Asta VS Ivy : 5:5
Asta VS Leixia : 6:4
Asta VS Maxi : 6:4
Asta VS Mitsurugi : 5:5 or 4-6, I'm not sure
Asta VS Natsu : 5:5
Asta VS Nightmare : 6:4
Asta VS Patroklos : 4:6
Asta VS Pyrrha : 5:5
Asta VS Omega : 5:5
Asta VS Raphael : 7:3
Asta VS Siegfried : 5:5
Asta VS Tira : 5:5
Asta VS Viola : ?
Asta VS Voldo : 5:5
Asta VS Xiba : 6:4
Asta VS Yoshimitsu : 6:4
Asta VS Zwei : 6:4

That said, I play Astaroth in a different way from the other Astaroth that I've seen so I might have different ideas on the MUs.
I'm much more focused on GB and spacing and only do a few throws per match...it might be unusual but I think it works quite ok.

These are my casuals scores in Cannes:

Asodimazze - Skyll (Mitsu) 2 - 5 *
Asodimazze - Happy (Yoshi) 8 - 2
Asodimazze - Dranakal (Mitsu) 7/8 - 1
Asodimazze - Pitbull (Mitsu) 8 - 1
Asodimazze - Keysona (Patroklos) 6 - 7
Asodimazze - Kusanagi (Omega) 5 - 2
Asodimazze - Kiradems (Cervantes) 11 - 1
Asodimazze - Hyrul (Leixia) 3 - 2
Asodimazze - Rufus (Natsu) 5 - 4
Asodimazze - Forn (ZWEI) 7 - 3
Asodimazze - Sawazuma (Maxi) 3 -5

I lost the last game of my ft5 vs Skyll because he did me a Red Just guard on the last hit of the 6B (CH), 22K, 22B combo. Someone knows how this Just Guard can be done? I've tried 100 times and never got it. I know how to do Ukemi Just Guard but this Red Just guard looks impossible.