Asta Matchup chart discussion

Asta is pretty weak to characters with very strong poking since his evasion, to get out of disadvantage is kinda mediocre IMO.

like saitoh said, asta cant really punish 236 at range well... especially when at 1K range, and 1K is annoying agaisnt asta because of the -1 and the force crouch. 2B after 1K will beat many many many options.

Xianghua vs Astaroth is bad because

Xianghua can't really space astaroth. Doing Step B, which is her best spacing move against most of the cast IMO, is stupid against astaroth due to 4A/bullrush/66A... So her best spacing tools, in my opinion are 3B and 44A+B... which are also very risky against astaroth.

So X's best bet is to get in, but Asta's spacing is ridiculous. If X wants to beat a spacing move from astaroth, she would have to commit to it completely to launch it with step B or FC3B... sucks to have no 3B launch on normal hit.

Even when she is in, X's mixup is very mid/throw dependent against astaroth... she can poke with mid low, but its really risky against asta due to his crouch throws. 1K is very safe against him, but if asta does a reversal throw from disadvantage, its a back throw... and good asta's will do reversal throws.

And the damage difference is really crazy. No need to explain this.

However, I feel that the saving grace that X has in this matchup is aK, because it shuts down many of asta's options when she is in medium advantage... aK beats bullrush, 6A, and throw from disadvantage, It only loses to 6B+K... but thats not so much of a threat compared to the rest.... still the damage is really low.

OH and 6B+K is another important move agianst Astaroth since it leaves him crouching on block, does good damage, hits mid, and is very hard to step since there is good tracking for both hits... it also contributes to the soul gauge.

ITs really uphill for X... its not unreasonable to say its 7:3, although I think its 6:4.

I Hate this matchup so much
 
1. Ducked throw = 236 is definitely problematic, which is why I try not to force the throw mixup too much. A Chinese player told me that using throws too much will not make you subject to odds too much AND hinder your grow as a player.
2. I didn't think about crouch throw haha, but I knew that it's possible to step ~2G which will evade both bullrush and throws nicely and then you can punish.
3. Using 236 as a poke is annoying but it's not the end of the world considering Cass doesn't give you too much of a reason to duck at 236 distance. Most of her attacks has some push out so she needs to run in a little bit before she can throw.
4. Sometimes I block even after Cass 1K hits or Cass 33B is blocked just to see what stupid counter the Cass player would try. Or I would try crouch throw if 2A is pissing me off.

However, Cass players have to think about two questions:
1) how does she close in safely when facing with Asta's spacing+ring position game ?
2) How does she force her mixup when facing with Asta's higher damage counter-mixup ?

In my opinion, Sophie players don't have to worry about the two above because 1) she has superior range 2) she can really work on Asta's SG for CF instead of trying to force damage.

Again, this is just what I think. Maybe I don't have very good local Cassandra players to play against.
 
wait so is there any reason for hilde vs astaroth to be in hildes favor or is it just cause. Because i mean her doom combo doesnt work, he can reset her charges with grabs, bullrush and 4A can poop on her spaceing, and she doesnt really have anything scary enough to make him want to duck. It seems like he can shit on what makes her so good am i missing something.
 
She can step bullrush. C3A still ducks throw and other highs, C3B B+K combo works normally, she can get very good RO distance with C2BB C3A C2BB C2AA (asta only combo) which means she doesnt have to wait for C3Bs to push towards edge. Her charges are still + on block, her throws are still decent, she still has a lot of moves with great pushback. Basically she is still a killer spacing character with full screen safe launchers.
 
Two things...

Talim 7:3

I'm on the fence with this one. Reason being is that I see this as a 6:4 for Asta instead of a 7:3. 7:3 matchups to me, are ones that, while can be dealt with, have one major glaring shut-down move making the obvious disadvantages clear.

In the case of Talim v. Asta, this move doesn't appear to exist. Sure, he has the same high damage throw mixups he gets on everyone else. But he doesn't have a specific Talim-killer move in his arsenal. Talim has solid interrupts and TCs in close. Despite her overall lack of damage, her CH damage can be dangerous. Also, Astaroths size allows Talim to get much higher damage off of a few of her combos.

It's definitely uphill for her, but I don't see it being 7:3. However, if someone has an argument to counter this, I'm open to discussion.


And this...

Absolutely not. No way is this match that bad for Mina....
 
just a note: Asta vs Mitsu has been discussed for awhile now. Also I discussed that with Saitoh and other French players. I too believe its in Mitsu favor (finally), but since every other mitsu outthere only whine about how difficult it is against astaroth (also every astaroth brag about how they fuck mitsu up) me and Saitoh have finally settled with this option. One more reason for scrub opinion not to count but oh well, we are but a few, fighting against the tide... *j/k

Thing is SC4 has become a very complicated game, especially matchup-wise, so people end up arguing about matchups and tiers for two years into the game. Meaning whatever advantage, if any, that cannot be agreed on for so long is insignificant. Even if for me and Saitoh it's transparent, other players all over the world tend to disagree, maybe its about me and Saitoh afterall. people who play me think Mitsu is favored, people who play saitoh think Astartoth is favored etc. I dont know how to figure it out in the end.
 
Two things...



I'm on the fence with this one. Reason being is that I see this as a 6:4 for Asta instead of a 7:3. 7:3 matchups to me, are ones that, while can be dealt with, have one major glaring shut-down move making the obvious disadvantages clear.

In the case of Talim v. Asta, this move doesn't appear to exist. Sure, he has the same high damage throw mixups he gets on everyone else. But he doesn't have a specific Talim-killer move in his arsenal. Talim has solid interrupts and TCs in close. Despite her overall lack of damage, her CH damage can be dangerous. Also, Astaroths size allows Talim to get much higher damage off of a few of her combos.

It's definitely uphill for her, but I don't see it being 7:3. However, if someone has an argument to counter this, I'm open to discussion.


And this...


Absolutely not. No way is this match that bad for Mina....


For me uphill is 7:3, slight advantage 6:4 and Talim is definitely at significant disadvantage against Astaroth.
He can space her really well and easily too, and the damage are just too different. Also Astaroth in a BT state is dangerous =)


For Mina, the character is just hopeless (worse than Rock imo). Just tell me what she's supposed to do against Astaroth that is not high risk / (very) low reward ?
 
I agree pretty much with Saitoh's/French Asta matchup list.
I just can't express my opinion on huge disadvantages/advantages Vs. Setsuka or X, since we don't have any good Sets or X players here.
For Mitsu, I agree. Even in the old SC the matchup was in Mitsu favor, and it didn't change too much. Asta can punish nicely most of Mitsu's stuff, but he's exposed to the Samurai's strong mid game (=>bad for bullrush) and mixups. Not to mention that a lot of "so so" Mitsu's moves against Asta are very useful.
Vs. Cass: I agree completely. She's very good at punishing crouched throws, also her fast movement+strong mid game can win the damage rush. Not to mention that she can spam strong tech crouch moves up close without risking too much.

Yoshi is a bitch too to handle, he's got many traps, UB's, fast pokes which are totally abusable on Asta's fat ass.

I'm not so sure about the 5:5 against amy. Is that because she deals little damage and can be stepped? I see it more like a 4:6. But again, just a suggestion my experience vs. strong Amy users is VERY limited.
 
For me uphill is 7:3, slight advantage 6:4 and Talim is definitely at significant disadvantage against Astaroth.
He can space her really well and easily too, and the damage are just too different. Also Astaroth in a BT state is dangerous =)

Fair enough. Damage is definitely the deciding factor. He can even out the matchup quickly in one or two moves after Talim hits him with 10 moves. Spacing, well he does out range her, obviously, but he's way easier to get in on than say, Ivy. BT state for Astaroth is just dangerous period, regardless of character.

I do think it's more of a 6:4 personally, when compared to Ivy (7:3 against Talim) and Voldo (7:3 as well), However, if it must be noted as a 7:3 for Asta, then I suppose it's warranted through the differences in damage more than anything.

As for Mina... While Mina can't space Astaroth, exactly, Astaroth can't space her either. Mina's 3B becomes something of a threat since a lot of Astaroth's moves from range, including charged bullrush, leave him at a perfect launch combo range. It's also safe from him. her B+K works well against his BT stance. She still has the 3rd best CF tools in the game, her 66A at range seems to thwart his throw mixups. Plus, the girl can do some damage.

honestly, InsaneKhent would be better qualified to make this call than me, but I'm basing this from what I've seen in his matches against other solid Astaroth players. 7:3 might be a better call here as, yes, it's hard for her. But she is far from hopeless in this match.
 
I agree pretty much with Saitoh's/French Asta matchup list.
I just can't express my opinion on huge disadvantages/advantages Vs. Setsuka or X, since we don't have any good Sets or X players here.

Not sure if the rest of the Sets will agree with me, but, from what I've played in Ast, I'd have to agree with the the 7:3 in Sets favor. Reasons being:

1. At damn near any range Sets is faster than Ast and can outpoke him;


2.Sets makes Ast play at any range she wants him to, all the while still having the advantage because of the forementioned.

3. Ast's biggest threats (his knockback) are nothing to Sets because of her own range and speed. Basically, because of Sets own abilities, Ast gets reduced to having to 'mixup' Sets with bullrush and throws. The downside to this is, once again, Sets plays a much better ranged game and has better pokes to this. Most of his better spacing options, Ast basically has to try to bait Sets into BLOCKING because she can basically catch him for counterhit or punish him if he whiffs.

With bullrush, if blocked, he's basically at Sets' mercy unless he gets some hardcore GIing action going. Beyond that, it's basically counterproductive to his other best option - throwing, since it puts him out of range.

With throwing, Sets has more than enough tools to keep Ast out if grab range if she wants to and, once again, can just outpoke him if she chooses to let him play close. On top of that, she can always 4A him for counterhit, and there's not much he can do besides bullrush to counter that, with nothing frightening on wakeup for Sets.

6K would be another viable tool against Sets, if not for the fact that it offers no real advantage unless it's counterhit, steppable, and unsafe.

Basically, Ast's best bet against Sets is bullrush, with no real advantage even if it hits.
 
Not sure if the rest of the Sets will agree with me, but, from what I've played in Ast, I'd have to agree with the the 7:3 in Sets favor. Reasons being:

1. At damn near any range Sets is faster than Ast and can outpoke him;


2.Sets makes Ast play at any range she wants him to, all the while still having the advantage because of the forementioned.

3. Ast's biggest threats (his knockback) are nothing to Sets because of her own range and speed. Basically, because of Sets own abilities, Ast gets reduced to having to 'mixup' Sets with bullrush and throws. The downside to this is, once again, Sets plays a much better ranged game and has better pokes to this. Most of his better spacing options, Ast basically has to try to bait Sets into BLOCKING because she can basically catch him for counterhit or punish him if he whiffs.

With bullrush, if blocked, he's basically at Sets' mercy unless he gets some hardcore GIing action going. Beyond that, it's basically counterproductive to his other best option - throwing, since it puts him out of range.

With throwing, Sets has more than enough tools to keep Ast out if grab range if she wants to and, once again, can just outpoke him if she chooses to let him play close. On top of that, she can always 4A him for counterhit, and there's not much he can do besides bullrush to counter that, with nothing frightening on wakeup for Sets.

6K would be another viable tool against Sets, if not for the fact that it offers no real advantage unless it's counterhit, steppable, and unsafe.

Basically, Ast's best bet against Sets is bullrush, with no real advantage even if it hits.

I disagree with you on that somewhat.

You're not mentioning that astaroth has other tools to keep the pressure on Setsuka, in no way i'm saying the fight is even or in asta's favor. However you're missing a few key tools in his game to keep pressure on Setsuka

1. Shoulder rush. If used effectively, it can force setsuka to be either stepped or an invalid command from her can come out.

2. his CF game (yes, he DOES in fact have a CF game.) That will force the setsuka player to change her playstyle, in which at that point would rule in asta's favor.

So even tho bullrush/shouldrush are he better tools, don't forget 6A, 4B and 3A as well....
 
My list would be like this from all my casual experience, tourneys and meetings in Germany + WGC 2010/2011!

Left number is Asta: (final update?)

Amy 4:6
Cassandra 4:6
Sophitia 4:6 ( maybe 3:7)
Cervantes 6:4
Hilde 4:6 (maybe 5:5)
Ivy 4:6 (indeed)
Kilik 5:5
Lizardman 6:4
Maxi 7:3 ( maxi is crap in SCIV... :(
Mina 7:3
Mitsurugi 5:5
Nightmare 6:4
Raphael 6:4
Rock 7:3
Setsuka 4:6 (i would even say it is 3:7)
Siegfried 5:5
Taki 6:4 (still annoying AA)
Talim 7:3
Tira 6:4
Voldo 5:5
Xianghua 6:4
Yoshimitsu 4:6
Yunseong 6:4 (maybe 7:3)
Zasalamel 6:4
 
1) She's top 3 in the game for punishing regulary (read:100%) ducked throw with hurting bombs
2) She can use crouch throw to stop the usual asta's mixup aka bullrush/throw
3) She can basically use 236 as a poke/mixup
4) 1K is "safe" against Astaroth, and -1 on hit is frametrap against Astaroth


Basically =)


1) i totally agree with you
2) i agree with you, to an extent
3) no she can't
4) i agree with you, also to an extent
 
I think Asta vs Nightmare is definitely at least 6-4. Bullrush destroys most of Nightmares attacks, plus GS is pretty much shut down by either low grabs or CH WS K, Low Grab. Just My opinion though.
 
I think Asta vs Nightmare is definitely at least 6-4. Bullrush destroys most of Nightmares attacks, plus GS is pretty much shut down by either low grabs or CH WS K, Low Grab. Just My opinion though.


I believe the matchup is not in his favor at all for a few reasons.

1. Good Nightmares shouldn't be GSing alot anyways because of how easy it is to stop (2a). This goes for every character in the game..

2. Grabs are not very effective for punishing at all. They can be easily broken. Also I hope to God nobody tries blocking low/ducking for GS...All of his options are Highs and Mids... so unless the Nightmare spams GS A like a whore, WR K isn't a viable option at all.

3. If you are getting hit by Bullrush a lot you either:

A. Attacking at disadvantage
B. Throwing a lot of whiffed highs or just whiffing a lot in general.

Sure..Asta tend to mixup bullrush with alot of things, but it's just a fast mid with a sexy tech crouch.

I believe it's an even 5:5. There is no outstanding flaw that can really determine Nightmare or Astaroth being better than one another.

Note: This shouldn't come off as telling you off, but rather showing you how the match-up between to equally skilled players (with knowledge of the game's mechanics) would run.
 
Note: This shouldn't come off as telling you off, but rather showing you how the match-up between to equally skilled players (with knowledge of the game's mechanics) would run.

No actually thanks a lot for that Jargen, I got into practice mode and was there testing for less than 20 minutes before I posted my comment. It was arrogant of me to assume I knew Nightmare or the match-up well enough to say anything. Thanks for correcting me.
 
I believe the matchup is not in his favor at all for a few reasons.

1. Good Nightmares shouldn't be GSing alot anyways because of how easy it is to stop (2a). This goes for every character in the game..

2. Grabs are not very effective for punishing at all. They can be easily broken. Also I hope to God nobody tries blocking low/ducking for GS...All of his options are Highs and Mids... so unless the Nightmare spams GS A like a whore, WR K isn't a viable option at all.

3. If you are getting hit by Bullrush a lot you either:

A. Attacking at disadvantage
B. Throwing a lot of whiffed highs or just whiffing a lot in general.

Sure..Asta tend to mixup bullrush with alot of things, but it's just a fast mid with a sexy tech crouch.

I believe it's an even 5:5. There is no outstanding flaw that can really determine Nightmare or Astaroth being better than one another.

Note: This shouldn't come off as telling you off, but rather showing you how the match-up between to equally skilled players (with knowledge of the game's mechanics) would run.
I have to say astaroth still has some advantages over nightmare. My biggest one is astaroth doesn't whiff much, and enough range to make B+K pretty useless at close mid range. Blocked 33B is easily punishable with bull rush, and nightmares step isnt as effective against astaroth. Nightmares exceptional throw range doesn't matter since astaroth's is bigger. And not sure but wouldn't the big man's knees shut down night side stance.
Just my honest opinion, hope you dont mind. I've actually been messing with astaroth as a sub for a while.
 
I have to say astaroth still has some advantages over nightmare. My biggest one is astaroth doesn't whiff much, and enough range to make B+K pretty useless at close mid range. Blocked 33B is easily punishable with bull rush, and nightmares step isnt as effective against astaroth. Nightmares exceptional throw range doesn't matter since astaroth's is bigger. And not sure but wouldn't the big man's knees shut down night side stance.
Just my honest opinion, hope you dont mind. I've actually been messing with astaroth as a sub for a while.

Astaroth has to deal with alot of things that Nightmare can easily throw on a whim.

B+K after alot of moves is alot faster than Asta's spacing tools. B+K K is able to beat Knee and can get a CH for a free combo. B+K bA is a very fast step killing high. Which brings me to another point.

When you say 33B, I hope you mean 33B GS. 33B by itself is unsafe as hell, and never be used alone unless attempting a TT. GS A after 33B will GI bullrush giving Nightmare advantage. This can set up mind games for Nightmare. However, since GS can be beaten with 2a, nightmare shouldn't be using it unless it is for whiff punish.

Stepping against Astaroth is hard for every character at mid/far range. At close range Astaroth is a sitting duck because he is more likely to whiff bullrush. Part of Astaroth's game is being able to deal with step so easily..it's just the way he works (this is why he fairs so well against the top tier characters.)

Throwing for Nightmare isn't really apart of his game unless his back is to the edge. So yes that is one thing Asta can beat.

Nightmare has alot of moves that space astaroth backwards, so it weakens the chance of his throw game prevailing in the first place. Nightmare also has way scarier tech traps than Astaroth. Astaroth's best TT is low throw. Nightmare can use 33B into another TT such as 44BB (hard to do but has huge damage.)

I don't mind debating at all. It's nice to have people discussing Astaroth match-ups since this SA is a ghost town. lol
 
Bullrush>all options off 33B6. astaroth can actually reach for common B+K setups with stuff like bullrush. a lot of nightmare players rely on throws a lot, outside of that and agA he doesn't have much to kill step safely outside of pokes like 3K.

Just bringing the that hte big man can get guaranteed damage off an unsafe move, astaroth actually punishes ok(but not well like say Cervantes), he has K or 6A(I'd rather take the mixup than put myself at - though) for light stuff, 4B 6K and 66B for very unsafe. On NSS K blocked I think astaroth can get 66B, and b:A isn't a good step kill since its also unsafe NSS b puts nighty at disadvantage on hit too. NSS I think is to punish a whiff with a+b.

Another thing is astaroth throw damage is scary. So sure throws can be broken but a sing/e CT and its a nice chunk of health.

Nightmare doesn't have much at long range to do so IDK if night's upshot game is that hot or even advantageous. astaroth deals good gauge damage out at this range.

Nightmares best assets would be his wake up games and he has to get them and keep the pressure up. I'm not saying the advantage is very significant or anything, or one character is really stronger I would rank them in the same tier(B possible B+ imho) but what nightmare does exceptionally well astaroth has strong options against.

Broke it up so its not wall of text, sorry it made it a lot bigger.:/
 
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