NOTHING_IS_NOT
[01] Neophyte
A little SoulCalibur 6 beginner tutorial for my boi Astaroth. YOU MAGGOTS!
Astaroth Offical General Discussion
- Thread starter Windstar
- Start date
00000000
[09] Warrior
Anyone else not feeling super great about Asta so far? It's been a struggle for me.
00000000
[09] Warrior
His damage is great but it's worthless if you can't hit or fight back. I often have to GI and RE my way out of pressure which sucks. Startup on everything is too slow overall. Too many good attacks are way easy to SS too yet other characters have great hitboxes on their vertical attacks.
I think he could benefit from a tinnnyyyy speed boost to most of his attacks, nothing dumb, just a way for him to fight back under pressure.
Foxbot
[09] Warrior
wait bK is in range and fast enough after a GI ? If it is then yeah I would agree his post-GI game is decent.
Honestly I think the biggest buff SC6 Asta received is that JG is gone lol. I am very happy about that.
Honestly I think the biggest buff SC6 Asta received is that JG is gone lol. I am very happy about that.
Zakhara
[08] Mercenary
Would mixing up PT/A+B post-GI be a decent option? PT is slow enough to bait an early re-GI but fast enough to beat "oops got GI'd better mash" abare and hits like a falling airplane.
I feel like GI is much more useful for Astaroth than RE, so if this is a reliable situation to employ the raw PT damage I'm all for it.
I feel like GI is much more useful for Astaroth than RE, so if this is a reliable situation to employ the raw PT damage I'm all for it.
00000000
[09] Warrior
My favorite options are PT, A+B, and Varying timing of command throw charging depending on my opponent. GI works out "better" than RE overall because Astaroth's RE swing is so slow, most characters seem to be able to hit him mid swing without changing their attack timing or stop attacking and still have time to SS. ;[
GI though, at high level play is going to be less fruitful unless you have some harder reads. At ground level though, GI is great with Asta because it gives him a pretty easy high damage situation. I feel though that the same applies to most characters in SC6 as the damage is really high overall.
GI though, at high level play is going to be less fruitful unless you have some harder reads. At ground level though, GI is great with Asta because it gives him a pretty easy high damage situation. I feel though that the same applies to most characters in SC6 as the damage is really high overall.
Brahma
[09] Warrior
Yeah I feel like a lot of other characters have his range but are much faster, and comparable or better damage i.e. Nightmare/Mina/Ivy. These characters also seem to have an easier time in the close game. He seems to do good once he lands a grab or small combo and can pressure, but otherwise it's an uphill battle.
I feel like his grab game needs to be changed, either make crouch grabs in combos unbreakable, or make them so they don't scale (or even reduced scaling). Also he could really use a feet towards ground throw and hitbox fix on 3A+G .
I feel like his grab game needs to be changed, either make crouch grabs in combos unbreakable, or make them so they don't scale (or even reduced scaling). Also he could really use a feet towards ground throw and hitbox fix on 3A+G .
Attachments
Astaroth136
[09] Warrior
Buff the damage on those pitiful armored/running low grabs. Or make them unbreakable. As it stands, they're just gimmicks and wastes of moves.
Brahma
[09] Warrior
Armor grabs ARE unbreakable if you grab them while you're getting hit. I think. At least that's what I get from the flavor text. Will have to lab to be sure.
Yeah a ground stun on 66A+G would be nice for 44K_22B followup. JF 44A+G should ground bounce. At least do this on the SC versions.
Just kind of irritating that Ivy gets 2 high damage unbreakable throws, Cerv gets an unbreakable throw that leads to ridiculous wall damage, and here Asta is, slightly struggling to land throws that do mediocre damage.
Yeah a ground stun on 66A+G would be nice for 44K_22B followup. JF 44A+G should ground bounce. At least do this on the SC versions.
Just kind of irritating that Ivy gets 2 high damage unbreakable throws, Cerv gets an unbreakable throw that leads to ridiculous wall damage, and here Asta is, slightly struggling to land throws that do mediocre damage.
I'm pretty disappointed as well with this iteration of Astaroth. A lot of little nerfs from previous games have added up to a character that is much more risky and hard to win with at higher levels. I believe he's really good at a lower/intermediate level, but once you get up there he's definitely a struggle.
Since we're all kinda down on him I'll start with the negative, and then go into some positives I see.
The Bad:
Extremely Linear
Making Bull Rush super linear hurts his anti step game a lot. Maybe they didn't want a move that ducked highs AND caught step early in the animation, but now it's an almost useless move, considering on hit it's only a sit down stun. I feel like the risk/reward for Bull Rush is definitely in the opponent's favor. If they step your Bull Rush they're at your back, if they block it it's not a great position to be in (not sure if it's unsafe or not, but my guess is it's maybe -10), and if they are scared of a throw and duck, they are just in a sit down stun which doesn't give you much. The full charge version is practically useless now and will only hit if you hard read a high or if your opponent just isn't that sharp.
4B (as well as 4) has also been made much more linear. In prior games, if your opponent reacts late with a sidestep they get caught stepping. Now it's a very easy move to avoid with step.
22_88B. Do I even need to elaborate? Maybe misses less for no reason but I've still had it whiff on stationary opponents. Plus it's super slow so relying on a step whiff punish is sketchy, and getting it to lethal hit is pretty much a guess as well since it will only LH light attacks.
RE System
His RE attack is also super slow. I've had characters finish whole strings against me and then SS the RE attack. This could be me releasing the button too late, but I feel like I know the strings so I can recognize when to release to reasonably get the hit. This mechanic might as well not even exist for Asta as a defensive tool.
He's also so slow and big that if you try to stop your string/attack and SS your opponent's RE, you're gonna get hit. I know this is like a "duh," but a lot of characters have a semi-safe strategy to do quicker recovering moves to hopefully avoid RE retaliation.
Hard to Make Opponent Fear Ducking
This is something I feel has been an issue for a while, but in this game I believe it is made worse because he has become more linear. Every offensive situation feels so much more like a pure guess, since you don't have anything quick to cover step and duck because of the aforementioned Bull Rush nerf. 66A is good to hit duckers, but to get the full reward you have to guess with the follow up since it isn't hit confirmable, which opens you up to big retaliation to a sharp opponent. I've been going with BB6 when I see someone duck a lot, but this too is quite linear so it's a risk, which seems to be a theme here. bK is good of course but the throw is breakable so a big punish for a duck is still a 50/50.
Other mids like 6B+K are good, especially have a ring out since it'll LH, but it is unsafe on block. Currently I am exploring the possibility of 3A, but I'm still early with that. This move could have some useful applications if it covers step well.
Note: This could just be a personal problem with my ability, but this is an issue I've been dealing with so far.
Range Nerfs
I feel like many of his moves have gotten range reductions, particularly 44A. This was a great keep out/whiff punish tool before, but now I feel like it whiffs a lot at ranges it hit before. Also now that it doesn't spin stun on full charge kinda sucks, especially since that would make it a great GI/RE deterrent, but I'd rather have the range than the spin. Of course the move was nerfed multiple ways so it has neither. I see this style of balance in a lot of games and I just don't get it.
The Good
DAMAGE!
He still does a ton of damage, especially with certain tech traps. If you can land a close 4B+KB (if you catch them swinging high or something), if they tech, the PT tech trap does a TON. If they don't tech you can 22_88B, which does decent damage as well.
His damage at the wall is pretty good too. if you can get a decent wall splat the 4KA combo is really good damage.
But I've also seen other characters do comparable damage with safer/faster moves =(.
Lots of Tech Traps
He may have lost some tech traps off wall splats he had in IV, but he still has plenty. The only thing is there's not much Asta has that make people want to tech, and since not teching is usually the safer option, I don't see much use for these tech traps in high level play.
Ring Out King
He is still really good at ringing out, and the canned follow up to his 214A+G gives him a lot more options when he's a bit more sideways to the edge. I have found that the camera sometimes switches during the throw animation though which makes getting the correct follow-up a little tricky.
His RE A rings out forward, and RE B rings out back (and REALLY far back on the second attempt), which will open up his other options in the guessing game if your opponent knows what to avoid. I don't see landing these particular RE attacks in their optimal situations too much, but that just means the other options are more stacked in your favor because these are so scary with the right positioning.
As an added plus, the round after you ring your opponent out, 6A+B becomes a LH, which gives him a situational scary mid to deter ducking. The only thing is you can't test this is training mode! I've just been doing the 22K, 22_88B combo, but if anyone else has any better options I'd love to hear them.
Throw Range
As it should be, his throw range is really good. It might even be a bit more than previous games, but I could just not remember correctly. His CE has CRAZY range, but the start up is a bit slow so you've got to be creative with when to use it against opponents who can duck it on reaction.
That about sums up my thoughts so far in these early stages. Of course all of this is just my perception based on my match experience, and some of you may have found solutions to some of the problems I've found. If so I'd love to hear them! I really want this character to work, as he's been just about the only character I really enjoy using in Soul Calibur, but so far he feels like he's got some pretty hard caps on his high level viability. He just feels so much more risky (A different kind of risky than the JI fest of his SCV iteration), although his reward is good in some situation, and just ok in others.
Also, what has been your guys' go-to combos after LH 4A+G (airborne opponents), and LH A+B? I've just been doing 44B after the LH air throw. I was really hoping you could land a 28A+G, but that's just me being greedy. After LH A+B I just 22_88B.
Since we're all kinda down on him I'll start with the negative, and then go into some positives I see.
The Bad:
Extremely Linear
Making Bull Rush super linear hurts his anti step game a lot. Maybe they didn't want a move that ducked highs AND caught step early in the animation, but now it's an almost useless move, considering on hit it's only a sit down stun. I feel like the risk/reward for Bull Rush is definitely in the opponent's favor. If they step your Bull Rush they're at your back, if they block it it's not a great position to be in (not sure if it's unsafe or not, but my guess is it's maybe -10), and if they are scared of a throw and duck, they are just in a sit down stun which doesn't give you much. The full charge version is practically useless now and will only hit if you hard read a high or if your opponent just isn't that sharp.
4B (as well as 4) has also been made much more linear. In prior games, if your opponent reacts late with a sidestep they get caught stepping. Now it's a very easy move to avoid with step.
22_88B. Do I even need to elaborate? Maybe misses less for no reason but I've still had it whiff on stationary opponents. Plus it's super slow so relying on a step whiff punish is sketchy, and getting it to lethal hit is pretty much a guess as well since it will only LH light attacks.
RE System
His RE attack is also super slow. I've had characters finish whole strings against me and then SS the RE attack. This could be me releasing the button too late, but I feel like I know the strings so I can recognize when to release to reasonably get the hit. This mechanic might as well not even exist for Asta as a defensive tool.
He's also so slow and big that if you try to stop your string/attack and SS your opponent's RE, you're gonna get hit. I know this is like a "duh," but a lot of characters have a semi-safe strategy to do quicker recovering moves to hopefully avoid RE retaliation.
Hard to Make Opponent Fear Ducking
This is something I feel has been an issue for a while, but in this game I believe it is made worse because he has become more linear. Every offensive situation feels so much more like a pure guess, since you don't have anything quick to cover step and duck because of the aforementioned Bull Rush nerf. 66A is good to hit duckers, but to get the full reward you have to guess with the follow up since it isn't hit confirmable, which opens you up to big retaliation to a sharp opponent. I've been going with BB6 when I see someone duck a lot, but this too is quite linear so it's a risk, which seems to be a theme here. bK is good of course but the throw is breakable so a big punish for a duck is still a 50/50.
Other mids like 6B+K are good, especially have a ring out since it'll LH, but it is unsafe on block. Currently I am exploring the possibility of 3A, but I'm still early with that. This move could have some useful applications if it covers step well.
Note: This could just be a personal problem with my ability, but this is an issue I've been dealing with so far.
Range Nerfs
I feel like many of his moves have gotten range reductions, particularly 44A. This was a great keep out/whiff punish tool before, but now I feel like it whiffs a lot at ranges it hit before. Also now that it doesn't spin stun on full charge kinda sucks, especially since that would make it a great GI/RE deterrent, but I'd rather have the range than the spin. Of course the move was nerfed multiple ways so it has neither. I see this style of balance in a lot of games and I just don't get it.
The Good
DAMAGE!
He still does a ton of damage, especially with certain tech traps. If you can land a close 4B+KB (if you catch them swinging high or something), if they tech, the PT tech trap does a TON. If they don't tech you can 22_88B, which does decent damage as well.
His damage at the wall is pretty good too. if you can get a decent wall splat the 4KA combo is really good damage.
But I've also seen other characters do comparable damage with safer/faster moves =(.
Lots of Tech Traps
He may have lost some tech traps off wall splats he had in IV, but he still has plenty. The only thing is there's not much Asta has that make people want to tech, and since not teching is usually the safer option, I don't see much use for these tech traps in high level play.
Ring Out King
He is still really good at ringing out, and the canned follow up to his 214A+G gives him a lot more options when he's a bit more sideways to the edge. I have found that the camera sometimes switches during the throw animation though which makes getting the correct follow-up a little tricky.
His RE A rings out forward, and RE B rings out back (and REALLY far back on the second attempt), which will open up his other options in the guessing game if your opponent knows what to avoid. I don't see landing these particular RE attacks in their optimal situations too much, but that just means the other options are more stacked in your favor because these are so scary with the right positioning.
As an added plus, the round after you ring your opponent out, 6A+B becomes a LH, which gives him a situational scary mid to deter ducking. The only thing is you can't test this is training mode! I've just been doing the 22K, 22_88B combo, but if anyone else has any better options I'd love to hear them.
Throw Range
As it should be, his throw range is really good. It might even be a bit more than previous games, but I could just not remember correctly. His CE has CRAZY range, but the start up is a bit slow so you've got to be creative with when to use it against opponents who can duck it on reaction.
That about sums up my thoughts so far in these early stages. Of course all of this is just my perception based on my match experience, and some of you may have found solutions to some of the problems I've found. If so I'd love to hear them! I really want this character to work, as he's been just about the only character I really enjoy using in Soul Calibur, but so far he feels like he's got some pretty hard caps on his high level viability. He just feels so much more risky (A different kind of risky than the JI fest of his SCV iteration), although his reward is good in some situation, and just ok in others.
Also, what has been your guys' go-to combos after LH 4A+G (airborne opponents), and LH A+B? I've just been doing 44B after the LH air throw. I was really hoping you could land a 28A+G, but that's just me being greedy. After LH A+B I just 22_88B.
00000000
[09] Warrior
Thank God I'm not crazy. I could very well be a Asta Scrub but being outeanged and the out damaged (for equal or less effort) by Signing, Nightmare, Mina, and Ivy really sucks. Can't really use Bull Rush or 22/88B to get in because their hit boxes are ridiculously linear, yet Mitsu, Sig, Tira and Nightmare tag Asta's big body on successful reads.
Everything is so slow too, even grabs. I'm digging the range of his CE and that it's unavoidable after the flash but the start up gets stuffed by basically any poke and forget attempting on Ivy or Zas because their CEs are faster and GI it... High crushing strings will nullify it too.
I still like Asta but I'm gonna knee jerk here and guess that he's easily bottom third of the cast, under a power gap. I'm having a hard time finding anything that's simply a good tool, everything seems to need a read or conditioning. The second bit is understandable for -some- things but really should have to be that way for everything.
Everything is so slow too, even grabs. I'm digging the range of his CE and that it's unavoidable after the flash but the start up gets stuffed by basically any poke and forget attempting on Ivy or Zas because their CEs are faster and GI it... High crushing strings will nullify it too.
I still like Asta but I'm gonna knee jerk here and guess that he's easily bottom third of the cast, under a power gap. I'm having a hard time finding anything that's simply a good tool, everything seems to need a read or conditioning. The second bit is understandable for -some- things but really should have to be that way for everything.
Brahma
[09] Warrior
Yeah they took away so many good tools from him and he kinda feels stripped down, especially considering how strong they made other characters. Old 44[A] stun, BA strings, bullrush and 4B semi tracking, old 22_88B. He used to be big damage and Rock was better at tech traps and oki pressure. Now it feels like they made Asta mediocre at both. Good tech traps, no reason to tech him. Wish he got a FT ground throw or old 2B+K ground throw. No big reward crouch deterrent up close. Feels bad.
Agree that 4B and 4[B super linear now. Used to be able to catch rolls now it whiffs even a little off axis.
66[K] should be armored. 66K hit should give a crouch throw attempt at least.
Ok, enough Asta bashing, I'm still going to play him, need o figure out what he does well.
For tracking mids, 3A is punishable for most characters. I've been liking 6A+B more and more. Decently fast, gives mini stun on CH for a mixup and pushes back to a good range on block. Need to play around with the LH version. 22_88AA works well, but again, punishable.
44B has been getting more use from me too, especially after finding out he can cancel directly into all his grabs and armor grabs (not CE though :( ). G cancels from this are pretty fast too. 44B~G~2A hits a lot more for me than it probably should.
6A stings not being NCC and both options easily dodgeable sucks. I just use the first hit. B6B is NC though. It's punishable with AAs on block but again first hit useful by itself. 2K_K still both decent as fast panic button moves.
I really haven't delved into SC much. What should I be using once I activate it?
Agree that 4B and 4[B super linear now. Used to be able to catch rolls now it whiffs even a little off axis.
66[K] should be armored. 66K hit should give a crouch throw attempt at least.
Ok, enough Asta bashing, I'm still going to play him, need o figure out what he does well.
For tracking mids, 3A is punishable for most characters. I've been liking 6A+B more and more. Decently fast, gives mini stun on CH for a mixup and pushes back to a good range on block. Need to play around with the LH version. 22_88AA works well, but again, punishable.
44B has been getting more use from me too, especially after finding out he can cancel directly into all his grabs and armor grabs (not CE though :( ). G cancels from this are pretty fast too. 44B~G~2A hits a lot more for me than it probably should.
6A stings not being NCC and both options easily dodgeable sucks. I just use the first hit. B6B is NC though. It's punishable with AAs on block but again first hit useful by itself. 2K_K still both decent as fast panic button moves.
I really haven't delved into SC much. What should I be using once I activate it?
In SC I try to use 6BA, or just 236A if they are step happy. 6B has armor, and I'm pretty sure it's a good amount of plus frames on block, but it is susceptible to RE since none of it is a BA. I've been CE'd by Sophie between the hits of 6BB before so I imagine it can happen with 6BA also so just be careful with that. The armor on SC Bull Rush is also nice since you get good damage for a revenge hit.
What's not so great about 6BA though is it's not a NC so it's not a great ducking deterrent.
So far I've just been mainly using SC to get out of pressure situations, especially if I'm up 2 rounds to 1 because if I lose the round I get that meter right back. But then once I push them out, his good tools in SC are up close so I've got to figure out a good way to get back in.
4B is pretty good if they tech up after a grounded 4B because they'll tech up into an unblockable. Just regular 4BB is good too since people may not be savvy about the follow up BA in SC.
So many acronyms!
If anyone has any good strats for SC please share! After 6BA/236A hits I think the only guarantees are 4B or 3A+G. I thought a 44B was guaranteed at first but that can be teched. Might be a good time to set up a 44B cancel into a throw if you need the reset damage and they know you can tech at that point.
What's not so great about 6BA though is it's not a NC so it's not a great ducking deterrent.
So far I've just been mainly using SC to get out of pressure situations, especially if I'm up 2 rounds to 1 because if I lose the round I get that meter right back. But then once I push them out, his good tools in SC are up close so I've got to figure out a good way to get back in.
4B is pretty good if they tech up after a grounded 4B because they'll tech up into an unblockable. Just regular 4BB is good too since people may not be savvy about the follow up BA in SC.
So many acronyms!
If anyone has any good strats for SC please share! After 6BA/236A hits I think the only guarantees are 4B or 3A+G. I thought a 44B was guaranteed at first but that can be teched. Might be a good time to set up a 44B cancel into a throw if you need the reset damage and they know you can tech at that point.
00000000
[09] Warrior
Also, why can't Asta sidewalk Taki's kunai? How did anyone think this character was ready to be shipped?
00000000
[09] Warrior
My bad, no character can step that attack. You have to duck or gi it.
Astaroth136
[09] Warrior
I find soul charge pretty useful, as it actually allows you to open up the opponent. Here are my soul charge tips:
Overall, I'm much more comfortable while soul charged, as I feel it finally lets Asta compete against other characters. However, the risk is that you can blow a whole bar and not get a single hit from it. I still use his CE though from mid-range after conditioning opponents and enjoy the threat it poses throughout the round.
- Never sit on 2 bars. You're wasting potential meter build-up if you hold on to two meters and never spend any of it. Throw out a soul charge to get rushdown characters off of you and reset positioning.
- Bullrush becomes amazing. 66K gains armor and launches on revenge. Not only that, but you can 66K,K for a second bullrush for mixup. Against a cornered opponent, you can easily 66K spam and mix in the secondary bullrush, and the opponent will be afraid to press anything.
- 6B,A_B is a mixup. I absolutely love and abuse 6B,A_B while soul charged. First of all, 6B gains armor! On hit, 6B,A does great damage and sets up for a 3A+G. On block, 6B,A IS NOT A TRUE BLOCKSTRING AND CAN BE GI'ED OR RE'ED. But, that's where 6B,B comes in. 6B,B guard breaks so it stops any counters or GI attempts. Condition your opponent in one round or test their reflexes with 6B,A, then throw in 6B,B later on in the match (or vice versa).
- 1A gains armor and followups without charging. The armor is kind of a moot point since this should mainly be used from afar in my opinion, but it's an added bonus. I've played opponents that don't expect the followup since I didn't charge the initial 1A, but that just becomes matchup knowledge later in this game's life.
- 22B guard breaks and launches. Keep pressure after a knockdown with 22B. If they guard it, you're at a slight advantage (or neutral, I can't tell without frame data). This launch into grab makes our combos a little deadlier too, which is nice.
- Enhanced grabs and their followups are great. Some don't realize that if our back is to the ring edge, we have three ways to ring out from behind us - 1A+G, 236A+G (A+G followup), and 214A+G, 4A+G. The damage increase on all grabs is just a small added bonus to soul charge, as your opponent should actually be crouching less during that time.
Overall, I'm much more comfortable while soul charged, as I feel it finally lets Asta compete against other characters. However, the risk is that you can blow a whole bar and not get a single hit from it. I still use his CE though from mid-range after conditioning opponents and enjoy the threat it poses throughout the round.