Attention Cervantes players

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Still, the big issue is that people are calling for nerfs as though Cervantes operated like the rest of the cast in terms of where his risk/reward is situated. He has moderate risk/high reward stuff that ONLY WORKS by leaning heavily on high risk/low reward tools. You can't approach him with the same logic that works for other characters because his overall toolset is unique in this respect.

Put differently, how many other characters basically require you to use moves that are -18 and -24 on block 10+ times per match?
 
Hates said:
Still, the big issue is that people are calling for nerfs as though Cervantes operated like the rest of the cast in terms of where his risk/reward is situated. He has moderate risk/high reward stuff that ONLY WORKS by leaning heavily on high risk/low reward tools. You can't approach him with the same logic that works for other characters because his overall toolset is unique in this respect.

Put differently, how many other characters basically require you to use moves that are -18 and -24 on block 10+ times per match?
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That's so wrong it hurts.
I don't understand why someone answered that.
It's like saying Alpha needs only to use 1AAA and Twister to work with, it's not wrong, but it's not true either.
 
Maxou said:
That's so wrong it hurts.
I don't understand why someone answered that.
It's like saying Alpha needs only to use 1AAA and Twister to work with, it's not wrong, but it's not true either.
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Did lightning strike the propellor on top of your fucking hat or something? If these moves were so unnecessary then you wouldn't be whining about them unless, of course, you're being a mendacious little shit. We've reached the point in this discussion where we're pretending that -13 is "safe" and that -18 and -24 are "not unsafe enough." Fuck me, that's ridiculous, especially given the overall frames on everything else. What, O Great and Terrible Arbiter of All SC Balance, are your alternatives? What's this grand, safe gameplan? And more importantly, why is anything Cervantes has presently more problematic than, say, Patroklos' 66B? That's mass damage from a move that tech crouches, pseudo-tracks both ways, kills backstep, and is -2 on block.

Actually, forget it. Those are rhetorical questions, and I'm not interested in engaging with this long enough to find out if you're biased and trying to be sly or if you're just really, really, really, really, really ignorant about this character.
 
Hates said:
And more importantly, why is anything Cervantes has presently more problematic than, say, Patroklos' 66B? That's mass damage from a move that tech crouches, pseudo-tracks both ways, kills backstep, and is -2 on block.
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I don't recall many people saying that Pat's 66B should be safe from the nerf block. Why do you think that cerventes would be the lone recipient of negative adjustments ?
 
I agree that something must be done to 3B when blocking or hitting on tip range. They took out the tip range collision that was in SC4 and previous iterations; only few characters can punish.

I'm talking 3B's in general not just Cervy.
 
Hates said:
Did lightning strike the propellor on top of your fucking hat or something? If these moves were so unnecessary then you wouldn't be whining about them unless, of course, you're being a mendacious little shit. We've reached the point in this discussion where we're pretending that -13 is "safe" and that -18 and -24 are "not unsafe enough." Fuck me, that's ridiculous, especially given the overall frames on everything else. What, O Great and Terrible Arbiter of All SC Balance, are your alternatives? What's this grand, safe gameplan? And more importantly, why is anything Cervantes has presently more problematic than, say, Patroklos' 66B? That's mass damage from a move that tech crouches, pseudo-tracks both ways, kills backstep, and is -2 on block.

Actually, forget it. Those are rhetorical questions, and I'm not interested in engaging with this long enough to find out if you're biased and trying to be sly or if you're just really, really, really, really, really ignorant about this character.
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*sigh* ... You really try to go off topic and make me say things I didn't, aren't you?
1AB is ridiculous because of it's properties. It's NORMAL that it's unsafe. This grand -24 move of yours is an invisible low... How many times are this sick unsafe gameplan of yours make this -24 moves blocked? How many times does this sick unsafe gameplan of yours get you punished?

Actually, forget it. Those are rhetorical questions, and I'm not interested in engaging with this long enough because I just know you're biaised.


PS : If you want to talk about about Patroklos, it's like saying Patroklos is really really unsafe because he relies on unsafe stuff to open your opponent defense (1K)... sigh...
 
I have a serious question:
I have never seen a tier list in SC5 where Cervantes has not been put into top tier, no matter if the player was a noob, a pro, a Cervy player or a Cervy hater. So why is everbody who plays him completely against any form of nerf now? Maybe I'm getting something wrong, but I don't understand all this "he's ok cause he's high risk/ high reward" talk when everyone agreed before that he's top tier. Obviously his risk is not that high if he's top tier. Or am I missing anything?
 
Maxou said:
*sigh* ... You really try to go off topic and make me say things I didn't, aren't you?
1AB is ridiculous because of it's properties. It's NORMAL that it's unsafe. This grand -24 move of yours is an invisible low... How many times are this sick unsafe gameplan of yours make this -24 moves blocked? How many times does this sick unsafe gameplan of yours get you punished?

Actually, forget it. Those are rhetorical questions, and I'm not interested in engaging with this long enough because I just know you're biaised.


PS : If you want to talk about about Patroklos, it's like saying Patroklos is really really unsafe because he relies on unsafe stuff to open your opponent defense (1K)... sigh...
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I don't see why 1AB is such a big deal. The only part that needs a nerf is the counter hit damage.
 
OK:
All Cervantes players aren't completely against him getting any form of nerf. Cervantes players are reacting in this way because there calls for an overnerf from people that don't possess sufficient knowledge of the character when Cervantes is, overall, one of the less popular characters. (With exceptions in some areas, which I'm sure we'll hear all about). Real character knowledge, real understanding of this character does make the matchup a lot easier. Yes this applies to other characters, but I feel that it particularly applies to Cervantes. However, the people that fight against the character without truly understanding him heavily outnumber the people that do truly understand him. So there is this fear of Cervantes players' voices getting lost in a crowd of people that want to burn him at the stake and that is what seems to be happening. At least Belial took that ridiculous 3B nerf suggestion out of the votes so he is trying to listen. That gets a thumbs up from me although I disagree with this whole exercise occurring at this point in time, for many important reasons.


Look at the kinds of votes we're getting. This isn't universal but we're seeing multiple votes that want every single suggested Cervantes nerf. For example, looking at aB alone, the move would become slower, with less pushback and damage as well as being more unsafe than it already is. Seriously, people feel that all that is needed? A prime example of a kneejerk overnerf from people that don't understand the character and, more importantly, have no care for the character and how he ends up - they just want to see him fall hard. Screw how he ends up playing, its not as if they're going to use him! This is not how to design or change a game.

I'm starting to see a mindset of "if X character is top tier, then that character must be nerfed". It doesn't just apply to Cervantes, despite him being the hate figure of the month. I find this attitude disgusting. You don't say "this character is one of the best, what should we take away," you should be saying "this character is one of the best, why is that and do we need to take anything away?". There is this assumption that characters that are top tier need to be made worse, without any thought to what this means long term or the alternatives.


Maxou:
This isn't meant as an attack, but - you asked for explanations on the character to see if there was anything you're missing. You were offered a good one that is accurate, but your response was "thats so wrong it hurts". You won't like this, but with respect I'm afraid your arguments are starting to smell of character ignorance. Perhaps you do need to pick up the character as you suggested before? Not as a token effort in attempt to prove yourself right but as a true investment into the character. It would certainly make your anti Cervantes game easier and could give you more insight as to why posters are defending him so doggedly.
 
Maxou said:
PS : If you want to talk about about Patroklos, it's like saying Patroklos is really really unsafe because he relies on unsafe stuff to open your opponent defense (1K)... sigh...
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Of course its different because Patroklos can spam the shit out of his super safe high damaging 66B, he has a normal BB to punish duckers, he has a Command Grab, good Throws. he has a Blockstun 1B etc... he has everything Cervantes has + very high damaging retarded SAFE options. Also after 66B he is left at such minor disadvantage it gives you perfect setup for reverse mindgames, his Auto GI, Step etc. HE can force a really safe, easy Mid/Throw Game with minor risk. 1K is just an extra.

Cervantes can not unless we are talking about super linear 33B. How is that not understandable. It really starts to piss me off. Cervantes has no safe BB, no safe Mid to spam that does damage, NO TC game, he is at huge disadvantage after any move which gives him less opportunity to step etc. Thats why he needs to use stuff like 1AB, aB etc.

For Gods sake even 4KK is unsafe.

Everybody agreed on 1AB ch damage nerf etc, its just the retarded asks to make him even more unsafe on his one semi-safe (-13!) damaging option.
 
wow I can't believe some of the shit Im hearing out of this thread...First and foremost this post is aim towards Maxou...
Maxou. No disrespect to you but I think you really need to either use cervantes yourself or get your head out of your ass..It's silly if anyone compares alpha to cervantes..cervantes is not in the league of alpha he can just compete with him. It's that time when you and syn said viola's SET 6B+K needs to be untouched or it would kill the char, but thats just not true...no one has a good answer to 6B+K no one. That move is too strong for a 50/50 that's safe not to mention if anytime she has meter and lands a 3B well it was nice knowing ya. Even if the frames on it were reduced and her damage got toned down she will still be good you would just have to work harder for your wins.

Now onto cervantes...the other cervantes players are right. Cervantes is not all that safe..he needs 1aB and aB..All i suggested was the CH damage off of 1ab to be lowered and the pushback on aB to be reduced so some chars can punish it..but the other stuff like making 3B -15 is a no no and decreasing it's frame is not the solution because you would still be getting hit for over 90+ damage..I defend cervantes because not only do I use him alot, BUT I say he does not have some of the nonsense stuff like viola,algol,mitsurugi and alpha does..Alpha is mostly safe cervantes is not...alpha almost has an anwser to everything cervantes does not..oh yeah forgot erm for those complaining about cervy's 22k that's just bad...i mean 25 damage right? if he hits? compare that to pyrrha's 22K which ofc hits does 85+ damage..and since we're talking about a game that has high damage in it well..who would mostly benefit more from this move? I think the answer is obvious..so does cervy need major nerfs? no he doesn't either minor one's or namco is just gonna leave him the way he is, which that's how it's already looking for this game. Ok my lil rant is over...Cervantes isn't all that.. the pirate is just really good this time around heck he was good in sc4 just he is played differently this time around.

P.S. Think this thread should be closed now.
 
Heisenberg : What Hates talked about was just like saying Mitsurugi is a really unsafe character because he needs to use unsafe stuff to work with (2K BE B, 3B, 33B/33BB). That's WRONG. This is NOT a good explanation by far.
Cervantes isn't as unsafe as most people makes him to be, he isn't high risk/high reward, he's more like low risk/high reward with one of the best tool box in the game. Just like Kalas said, there's a reason why he is top tier.
He isn't Siegfried (who isn't even high risk/high reward at all btw, only high risk), he isn't Nightmare, he is not even ZWEI.

Docvizzo : Thank you to find that so wrong. Just read the comment on Mitsurugi, it explains the comment on Patroklos. It is as wrong as mine on Patroklos btw if you didn't read it correctly...
I'll just correct something : "Cervantes has no safe BB (good he has other safe mids then, and how much dmg is BBB again?), no safe Mid to spam that does damage (semi safe then? 1BB, 3B, 66B, and let's not talk about 33B, BT B+K setups, 4B BE), NO TC game (to quote you : "Yup 4B+K is really good. TC, SS and it's like +6 on hit."), he is at huge disadvantage after any move which gives him less opportunity to step (checked on frame data, just loled) etc. Thats why he needs to use stuff like 1AB, aB etc. (I won't even comment that one) "
 
Thanks for using Mitsu as an example, because that helps me to better see where you're coming from.
Now I don't mean to put words in your mouth and feel free to clarify what you actually mean. But as I understand it, part of your reasoning for wanting to make 3B more unsafe, as well as saying that Cervantes isn't really all that unsafe, is because someone like Mitsurugi has 2KB BE and 3B that are both very unsafe on block, but are important to his game just like 1AB and 3B are important to Cervantes' game. Despite this, Mitsurugi isn't classed as an unsafe character or especially high risk, so neither should Cervantes. Is that right?


If it is, I would still say that I am inclined to disagree. It is true that Mitsurugi's 2KB BE is very unsafe, but his unsafe launchers have great ways to mitigate their unsafeness. 3B can be brave edged with a huge amount of delay. There is the option to 33B (-13) instead of 33BB(-23). If Cervantes' 3B was to be made more unsafe, he would have neither of these defense mechanisms to mitigate the unsafeness of his launcher.

In addition, I would say that aside from these two moves, Mitsurugi in general is a lot safer than Cervantes is. I appreciate that you pointed out a lot of Cervantes' safe or semi safe moves earlier such as 33B, 33A, 4B BE, 1BB, bK, 6A, 2A+B, 22K. That being said, the safe moves just mentioned, with a couple of notable exceptions, do not really allow Cervantes to maintain a reasonable offense like Mitsu's tools can. In addition, the damaging options from the list above have very notable drawbacks (as they should). I would say that Cervantes is not as safe as Mitsurugi across the board, looking at their effective toolsets as a whole. The entire moveset is the reason why people don't class Mitsurugi as an especially unsafe/high risk character, as well has his ability to reduce unsafeness on certain moves. Thats the way I see it. He has a toolset behind his 2KB BE and launchers with much better frame data than Cervantes does.

I think the point that Hates and others are trying to make is that the important thing about Cervantes' toolset is that it is the very particular and somewhat peculiar synergy between the moves that makes him unique.
As a very basic example, the very linear 3B that is too slow to use as a normal launcher in most cases, only working so well because of the unseeable, step killing but really unsafe 1AB. I understand that in this example you feel that 1AB isn't all that high risk due to the how hard it is to block, but there are certainly ways to weaken it, off the top of my head being out of range of 1A works very well in my experience.
I acknowledge the fact that that the same is true of other characters, but what we are saying is that it is especially hard to view Cervantes' moves in a vacuum and it is especially important to analyse these moves of his in the context of his entire moveset, most of which is important to a good Cervantes player. This is because while very effective, he just can't wail on people the way other characters can - he doesn't have the frames for that. He makes up for this in other ways.

As you said, there is a reason why Cervantes is considered to be such a strong character. But as we said, there is a reason why he is being defended so strongly and it isn't just character bias. Does that make some sense?
 
hates...given the sc5 system mechanics, do you believe cervy to be better (compared to the whole cast) overall than he was in sc4?

i never really used him before sc5 other than online LOLspamming. i do feel like he was better in sc4 though. i only use him now because everyone i have ever mained in the past is gone from the game, i like his "here is what i am going to do to you and it will work", gimmick free style that attracted me to cassy and hwang, and he has such manly, hairy titties.

i just don't understand so much of this. he really isn't that good imo. i use him twice as much as every other character combined, and he is like my 5th best. i can win more easily against very good players by spamming maxi 6a+b and 66a and not even doing any combos or mindlessly rushing people down with pyrrha than i can playing cervy and hitting iGDR 90%.

yall are crazy.
 
Okay of course i didn't read a post of the topic because you write like crazy but I used to play shura on SC4 and I must say that cervantes is way weaker than he was in sciv, he needs more variations in his movelist and his damage is actually pretty balanced since he's a REAL slow character (yea real, not like nightmare who is supossed to be slow).

he's not hard to use and very predictable now imo, so i'd say he's a mid to high tier and he doesn't need any nerf.
 
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