beeing average-the Cervy whining thread

Top Tiers ? I don't think so...
Even if all the moves like iGDR, 8A+B:B+K, iTP, FCA+BBBBBBB are 100% mastered, a problem remains :
Cervy is gravely unsafe. His RO game is very poor, and his step is absolutely terrible IMO.
I think Cervy is strong, good damages, good punisher, nice throws, a decent low, FCA+BBBBBBBB.
But it's not enough to compete with Setsuka for exemple, much more safe for identical damages...
In pratical terms, it's very hard to play Cervantes at his full potential.
 
I think people cant agree on tiers but I think cervy definitely doesnt have same tools as Kilik, Amy or Setsuka , which are IMO completely out of list, Hilde aside as she reigns supreme over all existance.

In this respect Cervantes is CERTAINLY not top tier. I too think he is an overrated (very overrated), but in general I'd still put him in high-tier or high-mid tier.

But Doc, here's the anecdote you may find fun. I used to think Mitsu is like super weak in SC4. I always thought how hard it was to win with him. But then one day Kingusha (local player #2 in Rus) picked Mitsu too and used my patterns against me. I was "OMFG O_O". I no longer think mitsu is weak since that day.
And yes - when I switched to other chars I did better like you say, but two things - my main char is my most studied char by other players to the point of extreme sometimes, and sometimes people are not ready for a change of pace, they are still caught in the same mentality, or have little exp and Amy is broken anyway.

PS: and cervy is definitely better than mitsu on my list still.
 
docvizzo:

If I were a dedicated Cervantes user this would be my movelist in a nutshell....

1. iGDR this would be the cream of the crop for me. Its uber unsafe but its stupid solid as a punish and a whiff punish. This already means that my Cervantes wouldn't be as aggressive as urs in the slightest because I would be looking for whiff punishment overall. I would not focus on none of those tech traps that u use except not using 28B at the end take the 53-Damage and impose the oki.

2. 3B is so good. I notice u do not use this move at all if ever besides oki. -14-Frames on paper seems to be a bad thing but like I mentioned in the tier thread there is essentialy only 3 characters in this game that can't do anything significant against -14-Frames. The Sisters, Setsuka, and to a lesser extent GS Tira because its a stance restriction. This means a spammable mid (that tracks damn good compared to other 3B's in the game) that leads to 63-68-Damage on NH and 85 on NH (character specific). CH isn't even necessary here but keeps u in the 85+ as well.

3. 2A+B do I need explain. This is golden and again -14-Frames especially from force crouch is damn near safe for the same reasons as above and leads to 63+ on CH plus the option of a forced situation throw mixup. The reward just like 3B is so much greater than -14-Frames.

4. 1K. This would be spammed like hell as its an unseeable excellent low poke with +1. Super solid move that creates a strong follow up mixup. I would make people eat this shit over and over again because i'm well aware that its smarter not to duck against Cervantes with all the damage he gets from mids. All the more reason to whore this shit out.

5. 8A+B:BT B+K is his highest damaging option I believe. U use this a good amount from what I can tell but u don't spam 1K enough to make people question ducking u as a Cervantes player at all.

6. The thing that makes him so good for me overall though is his basic tools. IMO he has some of the best ones in the game imo but I could be wrong. 3A+B, bK, 66K, aB, 66A. Even though aB is unsafe its so good. I might throw in some FC A+B (GB) but I do have to admit for me its useless when he has all those other good mids and even though this has nothing to do with the game I would barely use it because it hurts my fucking hands lol. I feel like the more I use it the more i'm prone to carpel tunnel later in life lol.

7. Enforce throw pressure but u have this on lock but people seem to be able to guess right a lot against u. Start thinking unorthodox I guess lol but I would spam his throws as well making people want to duck.

8. Overall though I would turtle at mid to close range with Cervantes cause I would be looking more for whiffs and less about aggressive pressure even though he does that better I assume.


With all the above said there aren't a lot of characters that have so many good options as Cervantes believe it or not. Last but not least I must stress -14-Frames seems unsafe on paper but in game its not because characters cannot significantly punish at those frames not to mention with certain range he becomes safe.
 
Its funny you are trying to explain me Cervantes after you have played him for one week, i play him since ten years now :P Honestly you havent played him in SC4 at all, do you think you can judge him after one week in trainingsmod??

in theory it looks very good what you are telling, but playing Cervantes is different than playing Kilik who has a answer to almost ANY situation in the game. Paying Cervy like this does not work.

And well maybe you forget all the AAs against 3B, watch my vids against Furzy and count how may AAs i eat! 8A+B:B+K is +15 On hit, so you get a IGDR for around 60 Damage, if you miss the JF you end up at -19, if you miss the iGDR you get punished too. Its always high risk, still you know im like the only Cervantes player who uses this move!

The moves you listed are ok, there are Cervys best Moves but there is no way he is in the same league as Kilik, amy, Hilde, Setsuka etc....maybe you should play him against some people and then you'll see that winning with him is a lot harder than with the real top tier imo.

But its really funny too see that there are still completely different opinions on him!

@Belial

In France i had some crazy Mirror Matches with Kira who plays a very nice Cervantes, we had amazing matches, its a pity they werent recorded. And yes i was like WTF its really annoying to play him and his style is very similar to mine i guess.

So i really know what you mean :P
 
Ok I will concede but I will say these things.

docvizzo said:
But its really funny too see that there are still completely different opinions on him!
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This is what makes me feel like less of an asshole for even debating against Cervantes users. Cause i'm seeing what Nori, JOP, and I think Hates are seeing and they are dedicated Cervy users as well. So I don't feel like a loner on the issue lol.

I have played Nori, Hates, and Kira before. Kira the most as I even invited him to my house.

I also studied Cervantes enough to be able to use him at an above average level. Its that easy for me as a player. So essentially I can use him.

Side Stuff:

*I didn't notice that 8A+B:B+K is the fast BT B+K. I thought it was the slow one that guarantees +19. U can scratch that off my movelist lol*
 
I saw mention of Omega and Kura winning with low tier Zas and Talim respectively, two things at work here.

1) They simply have godlike reaction time, and can circumvent a character's weaknesses through this to some extent. Go back and watch Kura's Talim against a Hilde, it's really pretty boring. He doesn't expose the character's weaknesses, but this also limits his offense considerably, and he gets by largely on just having godlike reaction time and basic defensive skills. If he chose to use stronger characters, he would be even more efficient.

2) Lack of character knowledge on the part of the opponent. A lot of people simply don't know how to play against Talim or Zas properly. That's not a knock on the player using that character, so much as the opponent. But it's still a factor. Because of the first point, this wouldn't matter much if they played a character like Cass who everyone knows, because they can still just fall back on their natural gift of godlike reaction time and play a basic, safe game with very few moves if need be.

This level of reaction time is something that can't be practiced, you either have it or you don't, and in some ways it keeps some very intelligent players from ever really reaching the top. If Cervy plays against someone who can block all of his limited mixup tools on reaction, what does the Cervy have left to fall back on? He can't rely on a SG game, and is basically reduced to somehow fooling the opponent to duck in anticipation of a throw, as they can't see which break is coming. This also forces him away from his preferred mid range game, and into a close range fight in which he's likely giving up speed or having to deal with auto GI's that cover many of his options. All of these issues are created simply by virtue of the opponent being born with an innate gift in the form of excellent reaction time.

For some people it'll be worth the effort to push through and keep trying, but most people would be better served simply picking Setsuka, imo. At least then the SG damage will add up over time.
 
Kowtown:
1) Reaction time can be trained.
2) No, omega and Kura didnt have good reaction from birth, it is something they've trained through a lot of effort.
3) So dont talk about stuff you've no idea about. plskthx

S-U: Well, if you really think you can use top-tier level Cervy, than please record some of your MM's using Cervy versus a good player from NorCal who has Cervy experience (like Manta or AlexJ) and then we all learn from you.
 
I completely agree with Belial, actually; it's unbelievably easy to see weaknesses in your character when you become quite thorough with them. The trick is working on those strengths and working to mask those weaknesses.

Other than that, that was pretty insightful, what he said about mirror matches.
 
@KowtowRobinson: Of course reaction time can be trained, what are you talking about?? Some people learn faster than others, that's all...
 
Belial said:
S-U: Well, if you really think you can use top-tier level Cervy, than please record some of your MM's using Cervy versus a good player from NorCal who has Cervy experience (like Manta or AlexJ) and then we all learn from you.
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QFT. SU you know that if it gets close in a tourney you would switch to Kilik immediately. Why? Cause he is not only a lot stronger but also extremely easy to use in comparison to Cervantes. He has excellent step, he has good safe lows , he has super strong throws, he has the best auto evade game, he has the best Auto GI in the game, safe 80 DMG Mids like 4A+B after step etc etc..

i know youre a very good player, but its very strange that you think you can judge a character after one week without even playgin one person that knows Cervantes well.

If we discuss Cervy beeing top tier, i wanna know where are Setsukas weaknesses? Where are Kiliks weaknesses? Where are Hildes? Amys?? cervy obviously has a lot of them, ih he is in the same league as the mentioned ones they should have a lot, too, right?

i think you are very biased on your opinion because you play Kilik, i wanna see you playing Cervantes against Thugish :P
 
Hey doc. Most people think Scud is hard to attack, so don't take him as a reference.
Hey Belial, nice to see you're in the game again.

I would like to share my own experience.
As you know, I play Amy. I picked her up because I like the character.
In France nobody understands Amy. All I got was wrong advice (1A/3A based game doesn't do damage...). I was doing so badly that I was starting to think Amy was a weak character. Unfortunately, having no good example and lots of bad examples, I wasn't smart enough to think out of the box and find myself what to do to win with her. But I stuck with her and did my best, sought for information endlessly. At some point, with the help of foreign players such as Belial, I began to understand my character.

First time we met, you beat me maybe 100-2. It was before the "wow Amy is strong" epiphany
You came back to Paris 3 weeks ago, and I beat you in freeplay and in FT5.

While I do agree that Cervantes is not Hilde, Setsuka, Amy, Kilik or Voldo, he is nonetheless a very good character. And also hard to play because of the inputs and the fact that you have to get your damage from many different ways. There isn't just one "straight forward" way to play Cervantes. It's hard, but it's also fun. The thrill of doing well with your very own character that you like.

I think what you need some perspective.
What I do is use another character. And usually lose. Yoshi, Cass, maybe even Soph. I have a hard time. Then I go back to Amy and feel wow this is so natural so fun.

BTW Amy has lots of weaknesses.
And while using her strenghts properly does a good job, it would be nothing without a good study and practice on how to get around them.

So just keep up working and you will get your new insights about your character.
Just don't give up on the pirate. Look at other player's matches. Train more, try some weird stuff. You'll figure it out.
 
@people:
its not a thread about how to play Cervy or how to motivate Doc to keep playing him.
Its a thread about the statement "Cervy is not top tier"

Thx :p
 
Doc: I just want to note you're starting off discussion incorrectly to S-U, he probably thinks its hard to win with Kilik (like you think its hard with Cervy), and thats a common mindset. And he worked a lot on winning with Kilik, so dont offend him by saying "you pick Kilik b/c its so much better". He is also a bit arrogant in his statements but thats just the way he is on the boards.
 
Something-Unique said:
iGDR this would be the cream of the crop for me. Its uber unsafe but its stupid solid as a punish and a whiff punish. This already means that my Cervantes wouldn't be as aggressive as urs in the slightest because I would be looking for whiff punishment overall. I would not focus on none of those tech traps that u use except not using 28B at the end take the 53-Damage and impose the oki.
Click to expand...
Which reminds me...

Watcha gonna do when the round begins

iGDR What?! iGDR

Watcha gonna do when you block that shit

iGDR What?! iGDR

Sorry for my boredom folks just continue with this debate.
 
Whatcha gonna use for footsies and zoning in case your opponent enjoys poking?
iGDR!
Yeah, just keep on mashing! Cause eventually you'll crush the precinct,
Cause you're a Pirate!

Mash that qcb+B
And it'll win footsies with priority
And every situation you can just qcb+B
For a 3 hit combo OTG!
 
franman said:
Which reminds me...

Watcha gonna do when the round begins

iGDR What?! iGDR

Watcha gonna do when you block that shit

iGDR What?! iGDR

Sorry for my boredom folks just continue with this debate.
Click to expand...

Except your gonna mess and do GDR what?! GDR...and then die.
 
Belial said:
Doc: I just want to note you're starting off discussion incorrectly to S-U, he probably thinks its hard to win with Kilik (like you think its hard with Cervy), and thats a common mindset. And he worked a lot on winning with Kilik, so dont offend him by saying "you pick Kilik b/c its so much better". He is also a bit arrogant in his statements but thats just the way he is on the boards.
Click to expand...

Oh what i wanted to say is that he would pick Kilik immediately because there is no way he can play Cervantes after 1 week on the same level.

I know his kilik is quite good and i really think he plays him very clever (i love his step into 4A+B tactics) , think i wrote that a few times in some threads.

So there was no offense intented. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
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