beeing average-the Cervy whining thread

docvizzo

docvizzo

[14] Master
So,

i just copy my small rant into a new post, im curious on other opinions! We need some discussion here!

"i really think Cervantes is extremely overjudged by some people, when he has to play without iTP and when the opponent knows his gimmicks its extremely hard with him. No cheap knockdown lows like Amy or Mitsu or Setsuka, no + frames on hit, everything is punishable, very weak step, just ONE average low, not one SAFE option to get good damage besided FC A+BB which is SUPERrisky if you miss it, no backstep, almost no techtraps and the few he has are punishable on WHIFF (If you miss a 44B tech trap against Yoshi you get launcher punishment!!), pretty weak ground and wakeupgame, since SC4 weak RO game etc etc,,,,

Good thing about him is Antistep, punishment, Damage and Throws and that most people dont know how to play him...

Call me a whiner, but there is a reason Cervantes NEVER places top in Tourneys, i dont count the 9 people tourneys in Noris area :) Where was Cervy at Nats or Evo?? Voldo, amy, Mitsu, hilde, setsuka, kilk, Asta, yoshi, sophie, cass etc are all better than him imo...very overjudged character."
 
I concur with your assessment. I don't necessarily agree with all the characters you listed as being better than him but in general yeah I agree.
 
Well maybe because.........................
And Setsuka outclasses him and........................
So their you go my lil' rant.....................
 
Pretty accurate. He basically needs people to be aggressive against him. If you're gonna take the game seriously and actually put effort into practicing a character, dress Setsuka up like a pirate and pretend she's Cervy imo.
 
lol i forgot ivy on the who is better list :)


If Cervy had a step like Cass, Ivy, Sophie AND if iTP would work against all the characters i think he would be a lot better. Thats actually what annoys me the most about him right now, the static kind of play against some characters due to his bad step...

Ha im sorry sometimes i have this phase in which Cervantes pisses me of... :P Out of fairness i have to say i forgot 8A+B:B+K as a good safe damaging move, but then again get ready for the launcher if you miss the JF.

@babalook

yeah i would be interested in Hates opinion also, maybe he changed his point of view? Last time i saw him playing he lost bad against a Cass, think it was Rigel also he didnt do too well at Nats or Evo, didnt remember where he participated.

Of course its still possible to win against 90% of the players, but there are some players who are like a wall and those give me a lot of trouble. The french Ivy Scud was such a player, i think in 10 matches i got zero ch 3Bs and maybe one or two ch 2A+Bs (!!). It was completely impossible for me to win against him with my current style of play. He backstepped me all day and just waited. Im sure his SG was green all the time, too :P

Its sometimes frustrating to see how Amys just run up and do the same brainless stuff over and over again (No diss to amy players) when Cervy players have to work so hard for their damage on a high level...:P
 
docvizzo said:
lol i forgot ivy on the who is better list :)


If Cervy had a step like Cass, Ivy, Sophie AND if iTP would work against all the characters i think he would be a lot better. Thats actually what annoys me the most about him right now, the static kind of play against some characters due to his bad step...

Ha im sorry sometimes i have this phase in which Cervantes pisses me of... :P Out of fairness i have to say i forgot 8A+B:B+K as a good safe damaging move, but then again get ready for the launcher if you miss the JF.

@babalook

yeah i would be interested in Hates opinion also, maybe he changed his point of view? Last time i saw him playing he lost bad against a Cass, think it was Rigel also he didnt do too well at Nats or Evo, didnt remember where he participated.

Of course its still possible to win against 90% of the players, but there are some players who are like a wall and those give me a lot of trouble. The french Ivy Scud was such a player, i think in 10 matches i got zero ch 3Bs and maybe one or two ch 2A+Bs (!!). It was completely impossible for me to win against him with my current style of play. He backstepped me all day and just waited. Im sure his SG was green all the time, too :P Its sometimes frustrating to see how Amys just run up and do the same brainless stuff over and over again (No diss to amy players) when Cervy players have to work so hard for their damage on a high level...:P
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Then change it? You can't just CH fish all day like that. Make him attack by Throwing, 1K, and FC A+BBB(important move, it's relatively slow (makes them want to attack) and the only real risk is getting 8wr'd). Make him fear your approach with 66A, 44K, 66B, bK, 66K, etc. to allow yourself to close distance and attack.


Kura does well with Talim, Omega does well with Zas, Seungcheul is a great Yun player, Keev rapes with Nightmare, etc. The days of blaming your character are over. :) (No offense!) :)
 
Nofacekill3r said:
The days of blaming your character are over. :) (No offense!) :)
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Noooooooooooooooooo! :P

Of course i know there is still way to improve and of course i still gonna play him, honestly i also wanted to start some kind of discussion since i think against that kind of players Cervantes has a harder time than other characters (even than Zas) since he is forced to attack with unsafe Moves all the time, can not play a spacing game like him and has (imo the biggest problem) bad step. Sometimes when i play Mitsu, Cass or Kilik its like flying compared to Cervantes....:)

I think the only reason of those relativ "low" tiers like Zas or Nightmare are able to compete well is their good step and range. Im not saying Cervantes is bad, just that there are about 10 chars which are better than him...
 
Doc: Pull yourself together already. Cervy has more than alot of strong points. Its easy to see weak points when you use char, but when you face against him you may see his strong sides too. Dont get drown in this self-delusion. If you look for bad sides you will find them. Instead look for good sides. Think about how to use your good sides better and use less bad sides. It's pretty obvious that if you try to step a lot with a char who's step isnt very good you'll end up losing. And its only your fault for playing him in a way that you would play a char with a good step. Same apply for everything else.

And before we continue - You say Cervy is overrated. Lets decide
1) by whom is Cervy overrated
and
2) where do you think he belongs?

Then talk from there.

Even risking getting a response of "that wont work once opponent knows whatto *whine* *cry*" I'd still say : bK, 44B, aB, 1K, throws, FC/WS moves are very annoying. Your fault for not being scary enough.

Now thing I do usually for characters I break it down to good and weak sides according to you first post

Good:
- Damage
- Punishment
- Hard to step
- Throws

Bad:
- Sidestep
- SG game (my addition since its necessary i think)
- No strong lows ( I think its false but whatever)
- Weak tech trap and wake up
- Weak RO game

I'd add a wallgame and I really thing his frametraps are very good. for example he is the only char that has a no-KD low that gives neutral or adv on hit (1K). And I also find Cervy GI very good. But for now lets just stick with what we see. What would be the good way to play Cervy according to that?

First off, you dont need a lot of poking, b/c your SG-game is poor and not much safe thing to do. Also you wouldnt want to bait wiff or CH from your opponent, b/c your ability to move around the arena is limited, finally you wouldnt want to give up a good mix up or damage opportunity for sake of wake up or CF.

What you want to do is try a lot of 50/50, forcing a reaction from your opponent (since its hard to step), that's where your good punishment and certain evades like 44B and some other come in handy. Dont pay a lot of attention to unsafety so dont substitute damage (your strong point) for safety (your weak point). Consider the risks your opponent has to take if he wants to throw you (with WS A or WS A+B:B:B:B:B) and use that and a few decent evades to your advantage. Finally make sure your opponent doesnt get away with his unsafes, punish mercilessly with iGDR and aB.

Now all I said should be taken with a grain of salt. I m not saying never do this and always do that but general rule is like this, at least according to your list of good and bad.
 
Hey, thanks for the input :)

I think the last time we discussed Cervys Ranking some people, i believe Nori, Hates, Jop and a few weeks ago even SU came to the conclusion that he is one the best characters after Hilde, Definetely Top Tier, which i now think is not only false, its _completely_ false.

I think he is a solid Midtier who has some very difficult matchups some very nice matchups (The ones you can use iTP how its supposed to be used, Kilik, X).

So the discussion is "Is Cervantes Top Tier" and since i play him pretty often and i think also quite good i have to say absolutely not a Top Tier at all.

When i was in Paris i had such a hard time against Trestos Amy for example, so i decided to pick up Amy myself for fun against him after havent been playing with her maybe 6 months and in comparison to Cervantes its so stupidly easy with her. I know she is a bad example but sometimes against other people who know Cervantes well i have an easier time when i pick asta, Cass or Sophie. Just Chars with good Basic AAs, BBs, good Throws.... And i play Cervantes a lot more of course, still its sometimes harder with my pretty good Cervantes than with my average other chars...

So enough whining from my side, im interested what the former "he is top tier" people think...im going to do a lot of research with Cervantes within the next months for Cannes, maybe i find something which makes it easier....
 
Doc : haha, don't be foolish, there is no more such thing as weak character (ok apart from rock), there is only weak players.

Look, I'll make a parallel from my experience.
There are few character that have the "same" mind game as cervantes : IMO Setsuka, Sophitia, Cassandra (I may forget some, Tira seems to be the case).
Those characters do not have strong all round pressure game like Mitsurugi, Astaroth or Taki, they do not have have insane pushback that can space you till the end of time (like Ivy or Zasalamel), they do not have insane CG game (even setsuka, while she does have a good SG game, she will be able to break your armor only if you get GId), etc...
But what they have is : VERY. STRONG. BASICS.

- good GI game
- average to very good lows (IMO Cervy's 1K is very good)
- good throws.
- good pokes.
- good range.
- good punishment (come on, how many characters can effectively punish?)
- good defensive moves.
- good offensive moves.

With those kind of characters where you lack in some place, you'll be able to compensate in an other place. These are ALL ROUND characters.
While those character are difficult to play because they require a complete mastery of 1) your character 2) of your match up and 2) of ALL the basics in the game.
As an exemple, there are people who still thinks Setsuka is mid tier (haha I remember our tier list discussion in France, everyone was like : IMO Setsuka is weak, etc... I was one of the only one who said : "the character is broken people" and everyone taunted me for it "you're biaised, your an idiot, etc..." including malek haha) because they never saw the character "mastered" (well, you never can master your own character IMO). And now ask some people like scud haha !
In the tournament, I lost against you not because of tier list or match up knowledge (IMO even without punishing you, I could still have won) but because you played better than me and I couldn't adapt to your game fast enough.

If you don't seem to be able to win with your way of playing, it is not the opposing character who is stronger, it is you who is weaker. You need to change your way of playing, and to adapt your self.
IMO those kind of characters Cervantes, Setsuka, Tira, Sophitia, Cassandra are very good characters but very hard to play. So yes, I still think Cervantes is in the upper part of the tier list.

What I want to say is : don't focus on a particular area but focus on the character as a whole, improve your defense, your GI game (very important IMO because it will allow you to get free big damage), your step game, etc...

What I think YOU should do is to play like CopDT7. I know you'll dislike the idea but it'll allow you to stay as open minded as possible and IMO you'll learn a lot.
 
Oh no not like COP, he is a nice guy but playing him was one of the most boring matches i ever had in my life. 2a.2K.2A.B.BB.BA.B.2K. This is not how i want to play and i dont think Cervantes can be played like this. Cops play was dominated by spacing and Pokes, Cervantes main spacing tool is 3A+B, but its -6 on Hit, so its easy to close the distance after it for the opponent...

i agree with the Throw and GI game, but Cervys Basic pokes are not in the same league as Cass, Sophie or Setsuka. 3A+B is -6 on Hit, 6K is zero. His best poke is still 6A imo, i14. -1~-2 on Block, puts opponent in BT on Hit

i think setsuka is in another league as Cervy, she is better in ALL aspects, pokes, damage, safeness, step, throws, lows (I think 1AAA is pretty good rushdown), safe very damaging mids etc etc.
 
You really don't have much to whine about doc lol. None of my characters can pull off a significant punish until i16 (excluding GS Tira). BB is enough of a punish for me. Characters like the ones I use force you to hone your basics. Step, reaction, all that good stuff.

Out of my 3 Yun has the best lows; Zas has the best frames; and Tira has the best damage possibilities. You think in a much more solid way because you can't just do what you want all the time. I've heard "Tira/Yun/Zas sucks" more times that I can count but all that tells me is that the person is lazy. It may make them weaker characters but they end up making you a stronger player.
 
docvizzo said:
Oh no not like COP, he is a nice guy but playing him was one of the most boring matches i ever had in my life. 2a.2K.2A.B.BB.BA.B.2K. This is not how i want to play and i dont think Cervantes can be played like this. Cops play was dominated by spacing and Pokes, Cervantes main spacing tool is 3A+B, but its -6 on Hit, so its easy to close the distance after it for the opponent...

i agree with the Throw and GI game, but Cervys Basic pokes are not in the same league as Cass, Sophie or Setsuka. 3A+B is -6 on Hit, 6K is zero. His best poke is still 6A imo, i14. -1~-2 on Block, puts opponent in BT on Hit

i think setsuka is in another league as Cervy, she is better in ALL aspects, pokes, damage, safeness, step, throws, lows (I think 1AAA is pretty good rushdown), safe very damaging mids etc etc.
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I knew you'd dislike the idea but come on, give it a try. IMO you'll be able to learn a lot from him. See it like an exercice in order to get stronger ;)

If you want an exemple (adapted to his own character of course) : please see Keev against Chris in Kayane's youtube channel.

Cervy has strong basics : B / BB / BBB / 3K / 2K / 1K / aB / 2A / 6A (insane move) / 6K / throw / bK / etc... stick to the basics ! It is IMO what you lack (seeing your game against scud and other people).

Setsuka is a very strong character, but who cares, there's more people playing Cervantes than Setsu... IMO cervy is very strong even if he is "weaker" than Setsuka.
 
Lol i think you are getting me A BIT (only a bit) wrong, i know very well Cervantes is a character that is capable of winning against almost every character, sometimes a bit more effort is needed than your opponent has to put in, but thats the game i guess :P

When is say this and that is BAD, normally i know its quite OK,you can work with it, but other characters are just better and most of the time even easier in those aspects...

I just doubt him beeing Top Tier, i know i still have faults in my game that are a player thing, not a character thing like i said often in the comments in my vids against Malek for example.

EDIT: at Maxou

Lol i'll give the BB thing a try, zou know BB is also unsafe, the same with BBB??
 
docvizzo said:
Lol i think you are getting me A BIT (only a bit) wrong, i know very well Cervantes is a character that is capable of winning against almost every character, sometimes a bit more effort is needed than your opponent has to put in, but thats the game i guess :P

When is say this and that is BAD, normally i know its quite OK,you can work with it, but other characters are just better and most of the time even easier in those aspects...

I just doubt him beeing Top Tier, i know i still have faults in my game that are a player thing, not a character thing like i said often in the comments in my vids against Malek for example.

EDIT: at Maxou

Lol i'll give the BB thing a try, zou know BB is also unsafe, the same with BBB??
Click to expand...

Yes I know that ;) But a move being unsafe never stopped me from using it, frame data is IMO overrated sometimes !
In SC3 I nearly based my game around a HEAVILY unsafe move (-23 IIRC) : agB. And in SC4... well... let's say my game isn't the safest one haha.

I hope we will play again soon, it is very interesting to face your cervantes !!
 
I'm surprised that nobody talks about the cervantes' massive destruction weapon:
iFC A+B BBBBBBB. The character has excellent tools by the way but it's this move that make him top tiers IMHO
 
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