Character Matchup Tier Project

Cheese
You forgot 33K from Sets as well (anti doom combo with range)

Mikosu
You forgot Yun's 11A which is safe. I do think Cerv has the adv though (duh), but again, like Maxi....Yun is not RELIANT on CR and in the many circumstances where he SHOULD use it CR attacks beat everything that Cervy can do. It's just that if Cervy guesses correctly, his punishment is strong hence the adv. eg 3K on hit, WS A on hit, CR K:G etc etc.
X vs Yun is more like 7-3 in her favor, cuz even on HIT, she can counter CR pretty easily, and she can almost always punish everything. He has to play a very conservative zoning game with her (very tough vs X imo) but vs Cervy it's not too much due to their similar speeds. It is more like 6-4 in Cervy's favor.
 
hotnikkelz said:
Useful info
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You're right. I was looking at the wiki when I wrote that. 11A is only -11 and I knew that but someone messed with the wiki and put it as -22. I should have paid attention but I wish people wouldn't mess with the wiki unless they tested. I'll look into the X matchup.

EDIT: Frame traps into CR are definitely still viable against Cervy. He could iTP over the lows but he risks eating the mids. Pirate isn't as terrifying as I thought but definitely still good.
 
Tiamat I think a thread should be opened in each soul arena to discuss match ups. This is a mess, and people keep jumping between characters.
 
Impending_Doom66 said:
Tiamat I think a thread should be opened in each soul arena to discuss match ups. This is a mess, and people keep jumping between characters.
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Hey not a bad idea...but, too many good players whose input is invaluable would have to go to each arena, and that is tedious...and unlikely i think :)
Some arenas i never visit personally, and don't intend to.
 
mikosu said:
These matchup numbers are based on perfect execution right? Then I hate to say it but Cervy/Yun just might be 7:3 like Hates said.


-iTP makes perpetual CR use difficult. On block he can iTP away from anything except CR B. Definitely in Cervy's favor.
-Yun punishment only starts getting good at i16 with his 32 damage BB. Yun being rather unsafe gives a close-up Cervy lots of punish opportunities. Luckily Cervy's best punisher from FC is the 2 frames slower iGDR.
-It's in Yun's best interest to either SS or CR Cervy verts. Regular punishment isn't as scary.
-All Yun lows except 2K and CR A+K are iGDR punishable.
- Both lack good lows but Yun's mids are stronger.
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I wouldnt use iTP at all against Crane. I really dont see how crane can be threat to any character unless im missing a major point.

CR K:G gives a nice Frametrap with CR B, but ANY followup can be avoided with Step G~[2G]. Especially Cervy who has a nice WS Game.

After CR K:G :
-you will Step CR B, CR A+B, CR K, CR K:G., CR 2K
-You will duck CR A, Block CR A+K

Same goes for CR A on Block...

Step G>>>> Crane.

CR A+K on Block gives Cervantes a free FC A+BBBB. Same for a ducked 236KK, A+BBBBB etc....

I know it sounds a bit like Theory Fighter, but its really not a big deal. And against Yun i normally spam 3A+B, which kills every Attempt to go into Crane. Mid i15 Anti Step.

After researching a little bit more in this Matchup, its really 7:3 or something. I cant see how Yun is a threat to Cervantes.

Please correct me if im missing something.

greetings, doc.
 
Thanks for the input docvizzo. The step weakness of CR really shouldn't be factored in since it's the same across the board. But I went into Training and compared their punishment capabilities among other things. I retract my retraction and give the matchup 7:3. I don't mind tho. It'll make beating pirate with Yun even sweeter. Thanks again for the Cervy perspective.
 
You are right with the Step weakness against Crane, but Cervy just has 2 nasty options with WS A and FC A+BBB, so maybe he takes more benefit than other chars.

7:3 sound good imo.
 
If Yun waits a bit in CR, his CR K willl re-align, so while step G (step 2G especially in this case) is useful vs CR, it hardly kills it completely.

mikosu said a 6-3 matchup XD

impending doom: there are already threads in each soul arena to discuss matchups, though i know what you mean
 
Plume said:
Mmm.
The Cervantes players that I saw used only a minority of those moves.
And seeing how Setsuka gets so much damage from a successful sidestep, it makes me wonder if it would be safer to play like the Cervantes players that I had to face, when fighting against Setsuka.
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Protip: Online isn't the best of places to find competitive players.
 
NM vs Yun is a matchup I have not actually played so I'd rather not rank it right now. Actually I take that back, I did play Fiendchi's Yun early in SC4 but I didn't know what he was doing/how to punish him right + chi's yun wasn't that great anyway (he doesn't even use him these days). So yeah I don't think I'm qualified to comment on it.

also, note that yun vs cervy is ranked at 4-6 in the chart right now. that's what hates and hotnikklez say, so I'm gonna go with their score

edit: seems main topics of discussion right now are Maxi and Yun. some lingering setsuka stuff goin on though

also, I totally agree with hotnikklez about maxi. norcal players focus too much on beating his 3B stuff on block, him being reliant on highs for pressure (LO K I'm guessing), etc. maxi doesn't have to play the way you guys seem to think he does. I do think he is low tier, with more bad matchups than good matchups, but I feel you greatly exaggerate how bad he is.
 
Tiamat said:
also, I totally agree with hotnikklez about maxi. norcal players focus too much on beating his 3B stuff on block, him being reliant on highs for pressure (LO K I'm guessing), etc. maxi doesn't have to play the way you guys seem to think he does. I do think he is low tier, with more bad matchups than good matchups, but I feel you greatly exaggerate how bad he is.
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If you say that Norcal isn't playing him right, please tell me or demonstrate the right way.
 
Alex.J said:
If you say that Norcal isn't playing him right, please tell me or demonstrate the right way.
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It's still got some ways to go but I think hotnikklez is the closest to what is needed. He plays the safest maxi I've seen but still enough unsafe stuff to get the job done. He uses a lot of moves from neutral rather than focusing on loops. Keep in mind that he is not doing as much damage as he could be if he mastered B+K string for whiff punishing/punishing crouchers (which is completely safe on block because the first part is two hits, making it an easy hit confirm).

 
Maxi has an unsafe AA, BB, 3B. End of discussion.

Edit: After watching a couple of those vids, your recommended maxi strat seems to be "get away with murder against players who don't understand how to shut him down properly." A good idea, yes, but not applicable in all situations.
 
Apparently debating just how much Maxi sucks still starts flamewars. Good to know the community hasn't changed when it comes to that.
 
"Siegfried Schtauffen"
Character Matchups.

Algol: 3|7
Amy: 6|4
Appr: No Test
Asta: 6|4
Cass: 6|4
Cerv: 4|6
Hilde: 3|7
Ivy: 5|5
Kilik: 4|6
Liz: 5|5
Maxi: 6|4
Mina: 7|3
Mitsu: 6|4
Night: 4|6
Raph: 6|4
Rock: 5|5
Sets: 4|6
Sieg: ...
Soph: 6|4
Taki: 4|6
Talim: 7|3
Tira: 7|3
Vader: 6|4
Voldo: 4|6
Xiang: 4|6
Yoda: 7|3
Yoshi: 4|6
Yun: 5|5
Zas: No Test
 
Tiamat: Are you going to Evo? I'd like to see you use Maxi and play vs. BrianHatesYou or Alex J. in a match (doesn't have to be a MM unless you want it to be or unless Brian or Alex demands that it's MM or no match). Matter of fact, I'd like to see anyone use Maxi and play against those 2 and succeed. I'm not trying to say it's impossible or anything, rather I want to see if anyone can actually consistently win using Maxi against Alex J. using his Amy and Brian using his Cervy....I sure can't do it and would love to see ways it can be done. Maybe my thinking is just too 'inside the box' and someone has some strategy that actually works.
 
Hates said:
your recommended maxi strat seems to be "get away with murder against players who don't understand how to shut him down properly."
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I don't think he did, but feel free to point out the murder if you don't mind. Noone i don't think plays perfectly all the time :/

edit
hmm nevermind. It's not important. I would LOVE to see vids of Krayzie's Maxi vs you all though if that's not too much to ask. That will further help see the....inadequacies
 
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