Character Matchup Tier Project

Large, thing I notice with both Raph and Zas, is that they both try to control range. IMHO Raph probably does it better since he relies on his movement to space, where as Zas seems to rely more on his attacks to space. Punishing movement is generally harder than punishing attacks.
I don't know either character, but that's just how I see it. Obviously it's more complex than that, but that's what the "discussion" is for.
 
yeah Raph definitely beats Zas

- better throws (damage, both characters are shit at okizeme)
- better lows (quite long range ones raph has like 1A and 33B)
- roughly as good CF ability (probably better though)
- faster up close (2A is faster than zas one)
- more damage on normal hits in general (and yeah raph doesn't even do a ton of damage on normal hits)
- raph ranged pokes generally have more speed and range than zas ones and he has a good retreat move with 44B. zas has no retreating evade period. raph has advantage in spacing.

zas beats him on RO ability. that's the only major thing that Zas is better at
 
How can you say that? Rock's 2B+G 2_8A+B has huge range. All but one of his ground throws can RO, and Rock is all about those. And meh, get LAU in here to argue. He'd have a bigger wall of text for you.
 
Hotnikkelz :

Sorry for the late answer, I was kinda lazy to answer before :

So, I did not mean damage in combos but general overall damage. Providing you play against a good Setsuka player as often as I play a good Yun-sung player (regularly), you'll see that Setsuka gets more damage OPPORTUNITIES than Yun-Sung.

When you say : "If Yun anticipates correctly he gets paid, Sets needs to CH most of the time to truly get that damage" ... well... do you often play against Setsuka?
Sets is not limited to CH damage (and you're wrong, if Sets anticipates correctly, she'll get CH... hence more damage), you're not taking in account her NH game (1BB > 70 dmg, 33B > 54 dmg, 214~3A+B > 75 dmg, agB > 75 dmg, B+K > 86) + good fast and safe pokes, her throw game (3rd best throw game in the game), her punition game (which is very strong : i12 JF umbrella/AA i14 2A/44B+K/6K i15 3K/214K i16 WS A/BB i17 214B/33B/1B:B .... i23 B+K / 214~3A+B), her active defense tools (very strong tools), her step game (1BB/B+K and such...), her low game (11A, 2K, 214~2K, 1AAA and those aren't as bad tools as everyone seems to think they are) and her very good zoning game (she's one of the whiff punish queen and you can more or less trade damage/risk into the ring positioning of your choice) ...

On the contrary, the problem for Yun Sung is that if Sets anticipates correctly, she'll deal a huge amount of damage... an anticipation move in itself is risky (the opponent doesn't do what you think he would do and you're kinda screwed...) but Sets has very strong low risk / mid and high reward tools, or strong high risk / high reward tools (that you don't want blocked... only CHed).

How can she outpoke YunSung ? Simple : very strong evasive game (exemple :4A + A+K B - risky tools but strong ones), very fast and safe pokes (including CH friendly ones), very strong throws and good lows.

In this match up risk / reward is the key word, and Sets has lower risk for the same or higher reward.

Wing_Zero : What do you mean ?

Who am I playing against in my area? Or who do I play?

I play : Setsuka (my main and only tournament character just like in SC3), and in a less serious way : Hilde, Talim, Cassandra, YunSung

I play against :
A lot of : Hilde, Mitsurugi, Lizardman, Yoshimitsu, Voldo, Sophi, Xianghua, Asta
Regularly : YunSung, Rock, Siegfried, Talim, Kilik, Cassandra, Maxi, Ivy, Raph
Rarely : Night, Zas
Never played : Seung Mina, Algol, SW characters.

perhaps I forgot some of them. Sorry for the bad english.
 
Runis said:
How can you say that? Rock's 2B+G 2_8A+B has huge range. All but one of his ground throws can RO, and Rock is all about those. And meh, get LAU in here to argue. He'd have a bigger wall of text for you.
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heh, you would be surprised at the level of correspondence about Rock between Lau and I.

maxou:
The list of moves that you called out except for 1B:B and probably 33B from time to time hit very rarely. 214~3A+B hits like noone really (how much times u land this personally?!), as does a:G:B and that's HELLA unsafe and pretty useless imo compared to her alternatives i think unless i'm missing something.

Yes she has fast safe pokes, but yun does too, i mentioned his i12 K, his i15 rangey 4K his BB has more range for eg. his defense is fine as well. Yes she has one of the better throws, but does that mean she gets 6:4 vs everyone with worse throws right? My point basically is although she's a BETTER character overall, there's no definite or specific adv over Yun really. ALL the pokes you mentioned though are all linear except for AA and WS A none of them do terrible damage either. All her lows are risky, especially 1A: so she takes risks herself for mid/low mixups (including throws)

Similarly as i said before if Yun guesses correctly he does serious damage and many of them don't even require a CH OR to punish a whiff. Her NC attacks like 1B:B which really does nothing in terms of defense, no TC, no TJ, it's just a matter of outspeeding the opponent. 214~3A+B is just too slow imo, perhaps if i see vids of effective use i'll be convinced how applicable this move is probably. I don't see this hitting often at all.

Her evasive game is not very strong vs Yun, he has the range to deal with it easily (good range BB, tip range 3A for eg) and sets is the one that is going to gamble that risky stuff you mentioned to create that opportunity. Very fast pokes? They're on par with speed, post block (her WS attacks at least), she's left right in front of u with block disadvantage. Yun's KKB(CH) is confirmable. Umbrella is HELLA risky to use all willy nilly. Guarantees Yun's 236KK or A+Bbbb on block last time i checked, although, you're barely going to find opportunities to land this apart from ducked throws

impact data
Yun
i12 K
i13 FC A
i14 A/2A/BT K
i15 2K/4K/WS B/FC K/BT 2A

Sets
i12: A/FC 3a:B
i13: K/FC 2A/FC 3aB
i14: 2A/6K/44B+K
i15: 2K/3K/FC 3B/WS K/FC 2K

44B+K is a nice one for Sets, too bad it's a linear vertical too. Damage is worth it though. 6K got shitty range.

So far Yun is not taking any real risks really outside his CR, maybe 44B? (i'm not sure if Sets punishes that well) The stuff you've mentioned with Sets carry risk with them partly cuz most are linear. What do you do vs a conservative Yun? you most likely would try to land your throws and lows. And Yun deals with these really well (the attacks that do it are safe too). One more thing, even when Yun gambles CR vs Sets, her horizontals except for 4A don't give much damage at all EVEN if it CH him...makes it worthwhile risk reward for him. I don't think she ever can make near 60 dmg for hitting him out of it.
 
For what it's worth, setsuka's 33B catches yun 44B, 44B+K also has odd anti TC properties, and 11A super TC's 44Bs last time I checked (at least vs Amy and X).

Also speaking of Yun's risk in CR, Setsuka's CH 4A damage is in the 80's depending on what you do, way more if you are near a wall, she can wall splat after CH 4A to the front, left, and back; CH 11A is 75 damage, easy to confirm since Yun is in CR. Of course Yun also gets the guess game of TC of TJ with CR K:G, CR B+K, and CR A+K. From a EV of damage stand point, Setsuka would have a much higher risk reward compared to the CR answers using only 4A and 11A. Of course this whole risk reward mess gets really complicated depending on how Yun enters CR.
 
Didn't read the entire thread, too much reading XDD

some match-up from mine.


Rap:Voldo 4:6
Rap:Astaroth 4:6
Rap:Cass 4:6

The gap between Rap and Voldo isn't that huge, I am kinda disagree with that 3:7 ,if so you should put Rap: cass into 3:7 as well.
It's true, voldo's 1B can stop most of VE,SE,PRE games ,it is 20 DMG, disadv on hit even on counter,BUT that only works on brainless Rap who keep going into stance .Rap can just stop PRE, wait and punish hard. Outside of stance dance, Rap has general better step and better zone control , I just don't see it why that much fav on voldo.

For cass, she even has better tools anti Rap's stance. 2B+K owns every PRE, SE options. 12 DMG ,neutral on NH , CH for 50 DMG at least. FC3B beats 44A >stance which voldo can not do.

AS , he is damage machine....that's all, has a i12 move CH for 70 dmg .....6K, grabs. etc XD that gamble is worth.


Maxi:Sop 4:6
Maxi:Cass 4:6
Maxi:Astaroth 4:6

I would say 4:6 right now ,but only can be worse.
These guy have great great TC moves ,it's really painful when Maxi against them, looping just don't working at all(almost) :((
 
eltoshan said:
For what it's worth, setsuka's 33B catches yun 44B, 44B+K also has odd anti TC properties, and 11A super TC's 44Bs last time I checked (at least vs Amy and X).
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11A superTC yun's 44B too, the timing is just a bit tricky. 11A is a very good tool against Yun btw.

Hotnikkelz :
B+K, agB are easy, damaging to use post step moves, B+K is especially good since you takes nearly no risk in doing it.

Well from what I see it's a dead end, we're saying the same things again, I believe Sets has the adv. against Yun from my personal experience and from other french player experience, perhaps I am wrong, perhaps you're wrong... I'd like more opinions from more people.
 
Ceirnan : haha that would be cool if you played the character ! Especially because of me xD, Setsuka is an underplayed, very strong and fun to play with character !

Some things I forgot to add about Yun-Sung vs Setsuka, I talked about it in my first answer to hotnikkelz, but I forgot to emphasize it in my second one :

One of Yun-Sung problem's in this match up is that he has a lot of moves that are negatives on hit, and that is especially true for his pokes. Meaning he has to takes risks after his pokes regardless of what Hotnikkelz say if he wants to pressure/attack or anticipate something afterwards.

And btw, I highly disagree with you Hotnikkelz when you say : "Her evasive game is not very strong vs Yun, he has the range to deal with it easily (good range BB, tip range 3A for eg)"
Her evasive game is not limited to 4A, you must think of A+K A/B, very rewarding step, and a whole set of very good TC moves. Even if it does only 20 or 30 damage, it is important, she's at +frames on hit, allowing her to pressure/find CH/throw you/train them... and 20 or 30 damage can be a huge deal in a match. You may not believe me but I think some players here will agree with me.
 
Runis said:
How can you say that? Rock's 2B+G 2_8A+B has huge range. All but one of his ground throws can RO, and Rock is all about those. And meh, get LAU in here to argue. He'd have a bigger wall of text for you.
Click to expand...

honestly not really lol

JB here was the one who convinced me to pick up Rock as one of my mains. hahaha... but yeah... we concluded Rock's RO is slightly better.

and as for replying about Rock's match up and defending Rock... I have already given up before this thread before it was made in the first place for too may reasons.

-LAU
 
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