Critics on Nightmare

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hteng

[09] Warrior
i must admit though, the Keev (nm) vs Saitoh (asta) match was painful to watch, Keev literally had most his cards read, once NM's game is read it's a steep uphill battle here on. I don't know, might be a bad matchup, the bullrushes are so good at TCing it's not even funny.
 

Spidey

[09] Warrior
@Tiamat, to give a more accurate example, see Cervantes, he actually has very good wall game and like no RO game. NM 66K on CH does wallsplat but doesnt RO, that the idea.

About Sieg, what i mean is that if Sieg lands a wallsplat he will do massive dmg, but his RO game just isnt efficient imo, like he cant RO from far range like ex. NM GS A, 4KK or sth else of his variety.
 

IkI

[08] Mercenary
3) NM's got one of the best throw games in this game.. it's comparable to Astas, Rock's, Ivy's etc.... I won't bother explaining why.. you should just do your homework if you don't see why.
-LAU

I'm not agree about that. His throw game is common. For me a throw cannot be guarded. When the opponent is guard crouch, you can't throw him at all, whereas Asta can grab you like a bag of potatoes. Low throws are just simply low attacks, and standing throws are like most others chars, one normal and one for RO.
Yeah low throws have RO options too but it compensate a "fast" low RO attack of the other chars. (the 2A+G is like the 1A of cervantes, 1KB of mitsu, 1K of asta, etc...)
About 2B+G, it would be much better if 2A+G was the command to low throw in the back ;) but it's not :(



The wall combo of Nightmare are one of the best, sure, nothing to say but the starters could be better :p

For the RO, I think he wins on Hilde cuz he's the only one that can RO a char on the ground. GS KK for a dip !
But well, if you fall into a combo on Hilde, you are good for a RO :(
 

Promiethius

[09] Warrior
Iki, Lau ment not just setups for grabs, but Nightmares grab range is second best in the game.

@ Lau, I've never met anyone who can do Aga JF slow consistently. You are right that he has it though..so I can't argue with that. If someone could do it consistently in a match, then i don't think Nightmare would be considered mid tier..lol. I go by in practice rather than ability, because if we went by ability, Setsuka, and Yoshi would be top tier all day.

Other than that, good words Lau.

>.>; @ Tiamut, I agree. It is impossible to have a good wall game and a bad RO game, lol.
 

IkI

[08] Mercenary
Iki, Lau ment not just setups for grabs, but Nightmares grab range is second best in the game.

Indeed it's mutant hand has a very good range :o


Btw, If there are european nightmare players on PSN here, I'll be glad to have some casuals matchs with them =).
 

Spidey

[09] Warrior
NM HAS one of the best throw games. His B+G does amazing RO and excellent wall dmg. His A+G does 55 dmg with good oki potential. What else would you like?

It is very possible to have good wall game and bad RO game. Again the perfect example is Cervantes...
 

Tiamat

[11] Champion
@Tiamat, to give a more accurate example, see Cervantes, he actually has very good wall game and like no RO game. NM 66K on CH does wallsplat but doesnt RO, that the idea.

About Sieg, what i mean is that if Sieg lands a wallsplat he will do massive dmg, but his RO game just isnt efficient imo, like he cant RO from far range like ex. NM GS A, 4KK or sth else of his variety.

ah cervy's 4KK kick...I had forgotten NM 66K was like that too. you're right. cervantes example is perfect


IkI: it's not as if Asta can standing grab and crouch grab at the same time -_-

Nightmare has the best range throw in the game tied with astaroth

hteng: Keev played BAD against Saitoh. He is a great player but in that particular match he played badly, so do not take that as strong evidence of NM vs Asta matchup. I haven't seen anyone use my nm vs asta strategy yet.
 

IkI

[08] Mercenary
Tiamat : Yeah I know, what I meant it's asta can grab on opponent in crouch guard whereas NM can't.
 

Tiamat

[11] Champion
crouch grabs are still breakable, and unlike mids, they ONLY work on crouching opponents. As far as mixups are concerned, nightmare has stronger mids than astaroth does, but weaker grabs.
 

Vlaster

[09] Warrior
i just have to say

1[A] is one of the best nightmare moves, is his best option for down oponents, excelent frame trap with the 1[A]>GS B mix up, on turtle blocked opponents the same mix up eats his soul gauge so fast just with five 1[A] GS B, insane advantage after opponent blocking 1[A], the downed oponents cant roll this.

GS B, excellent move, ridiculous tracking to both sides, eat your soul gauge just with 10, now he can do GS into NSS, etc.

and NSS, how the hell u said this sucks?, is incredible agaisnt poke games, for evading is a pretty good stance

omg Nightmare Throws, RIDICULOUS RANGE, near to walls........ make me have nightmares, B+G > Wallsplat > 2A+B > 92 Damage??? WTF> ring out, A+G excelent for okizeme game like Spadey said.
 

Spidey

[09] Warrior
ah cervy's 4KK kick...I had forgotten NM 66K was like that too. you're right. cervantes example is perfect

Nightmare has the best range throw in the game tied with astaroth

Give Cervy's 2A+B a try. Wallsplats same way as 4KK does at stun counter, with the exception that 2A+B does it in normal fuckin hit :P

Also Rock and Astaroth have better throw range than NM. Those guys are gi-fuckin-gantic
 

Tiamat

[11] Champion
Be interesting if someone could actually come up with some definitive tests to prove the supposed throw range difference. I've seen nothing to indicate Astaroth has more throw range than Nightmare.
 

microgamer

[10] Knight
Ok I lied; I'll post my response here (I didn't expect a lot of posts between then and now). Let me just preface by emphasizing that this is just my opinion.
micro, I'm going to pick on you today.

That's only the case when 3B connects. You mix up between 1A trap or 44BB.
With ch ws (B) > NSS A+B, the 66B or 44BB trap is entirely negated by just holding G and not teching. At that point, you can do regular combo ender 2A+B or 33B for miniscule, guaranteed damage. You can't throw right afterward, because the opponent won't be fully standing by the time the grab's impact frame is active. You can wait, but the opponent can/will notice the delay and 2A.
I was somewhat aware that it wasn't a straight 50/50 in all cases, which is why I said 'pressured' as opposed to stating it was a 50/50 in every situation (in any case, if the opponent chooses to block 44BB that's still a good chunk of the Soul Gauge pressure). 2A+B as a combo ender isn't bad at all either because you get the Soul Charge for wakeup.

You won't believe how much stuff gets TC'd, even after the TC move in question is finished animating.

•66A is slow. If you're lucky and it connects on that rare occasion, you get 11B free. Yay.
•a:G+A I only use to kill step. And that's after I visually confirm that they are indeed stepping. None of that anticipation BS. I used to use it as step killer and whiff punisher ala deathfist, then I realized that it whiffs way too much because of TC. Nothing better than whiffing a whiff punish.
•Same problem with 6A.
•Same problem with 6K.

etc, etc.

Only mid pokes he has are 3K and 11K, and 3K got screwed for no logical reason.
IIRC GS KK is guaranteed after 66A (the timing gets a bit trickier the further the range though). The main strength in 66A is the long range as well as it's frames on block. I personally don't use agA as a punisher, it's best as anti-step like you said. I think it depends on what the opponent whiffs, but I usually use 33B6 as a whiff punish. If you use agA as anticipation for step and it's blocked you're still neutral to advantage depending on which version you do. I wouldn't say 6A is one of NM's solid highs since it's nothing like agA-- the only plus side is that it's easier input and it ROs to the left side on CH (ideal after CH GS A). 6K is good in it's specific use (punish, interrupt).

The highs I mentioned in my first post are the attacks that IMO are solid; they're long ranged, cover step, and encourage the opponent to duck/TC if they really want to punish them.

2A still beats out post-66K6 on block. Only option from 66K6 that is a frame trap, iirc, is GS KK. And no one is crazy enough to use that. ws AA6 has no frame traps afterward, so 2A beats all GS followups out.

To get the best results from GS, just do the 236 motion from neutral stance. It's too fast for people to 2A, so stuff will actually connect on occasion. Only move with GS stance change that should be used more than once is probably 1[A], if the opponent likes to block it instead of GI/jump it.
Yes, 66K6 on block is pretty bad as it's easy to shut down, but the points I mentioned in my first post deal with it's use on NH or CH. It's i16 so it's fast enough to punish some attacks on block, and it's a TC so I think that's enough to say that it'll land on the opponent NH or CH in a number of situations. So what I'm going to talk about here are more of theories that I've had, not necessarily tested methods. After you get 66K6 to hit, your main option should be GS B for Gauge pressure. People will be hesitant to interrupt (with 2A or w/e else is fast enough), or GI the GS B because of GS A. On CH 66K6, 2A can't interrupt a GS B so the only option left is to GI or block. I'm unsure how well GS B Gauge damage stacks up, but I think it's what the designers had in mind when creating NM this time around; when I look at NM's moves, I see a lot of opportunities to get an opponent to block GS B. This is what I think the WR AA(6) series is about too. I think that opponents won't be quick to interrupt the GS transition because you can just finish the natural string, so it's another situation in which you can get GS B to chip away against the Soul Gauge. The really bad thing is that the natural string is quite punishable, so it's definitely not so useful, but it's not complete trash IMO. I think it would be best in a situation when opponents start stepping WR B and WR K.

On a side note, this goes back to why I think 1[A] is designed the way it is right now. Back in SC3, GS KK was a guaranteed followup after 1[A]6 on block so that gave an incentive to people to jump/GI the low; Namco took that away in SC4 but there's a new reason to avoid it with the Soul Gauge system. 1[A]6 on block is a mixup between GS B and a throw like what Tiamat said. On top of that, 1[A] crushes in 11 blocks and GS B crushes in 10. That's what makes the opponent want to jump or GI the 1[A] this time around.


2A doesn't allow you do apply FC mixups. The delay you have to make for GS to become FC is noticable enough to 2A before any flapjacks/ws B_Ks/lows come out.
I think this is arguable. WR B or WR K comes out really fast. I think if you can freeze the opponent enough with the threat of GS attacks and WR B or WR K then you can apply the mixup.

As of now, high risk, mid to low reward, imo. Most, if not all, of his high damage stuff comes from ch ws (B) and 3B. I'll use ch ws (B) as an example because that's where his most damaging stuff comes from.

this is the most damaging thing nm has (without walls), so far:
ch ws (B) > NSS A+B > 44B(B) tech trap > NSS (A) tech trap > NSS B.

You have to apply 50/50 twice and have the opponent guess wrong both times to get any decent damage. You have to find some way to force that ch ws B to connect in the first place, before any of this can happen. Asta gets a retarded-to-break hcb B+G > 22_88B for more damage than the damage you get if your opponent guesses wrong on the 44B(B)/66B 50/50. Your opponent could bypass that 50/50 altogether by just holding G after NSS A+B.

And that 22_88B after Asta's throw is guaranteed. The break window is enough to get people scared enough to twitch duck, at least. NM has nothing makes people want to duck. Flapjacks can be broken from standing, and you don't even have to guess. Break B if nm's back is to the edge of the ring. Break A every other time. If the nm mixes things up, take the damage. All nm gets is a miniscule BT 2K after flapjack B. Stay down after flapjack A and take the miniscule damage from ground hit 33B. Break standing throws. Break B throw if NM's back is to the edge, break A every other time. If nm mixes it up, he gets nothing after B throw. After A throw, just side roll. You have enough time to crouch block if you see anti-side roll 1[A] coming.
I won't argue that Astaroth has a high damage mixups. That's definitely one of his strengths. NM's strength in his throws is that his giant claw grabs in a lot of characters after block, where most other characters are out of range. If the opponent insists on breaking according to ring positioning all the time, then I don't mind getting free damage. I don't agree with you when you say his throws don't make people duck/TC; they're definitely not as threatening as Astaroth's, but you can't say that Nightmare's throw game isn't one of the best otherwise. A note on A+G flapjack: yeah the opponent can eat the 33B on the ground, but you can go into GS after that and have them block GS B again.

1A can't even be used in standard mixups because you can block it on reaction. Post a:G+A or 4A, if someone likes to mix up 3B/33B with 1A, just block high. You have enough time to see the 1A coming and press 2 to guard low.
Agreed. 1A uncharged is slow enough to react to essentially 100% of the time (not online, but that's besides the point). I didn't really say 1A was one of his mixups though. I did mention that I believe that NM has mixups, just not the standard low/throw vs mid most of the time.
 

Spidey

[09] Warrior
Be interesting if someone could actually come up with some definitive tests to prove the supposed throw range difference. I've seen nothing to indicate Astaroth has more throw range than Nightmare.

I think there actually is a reliable way. Take NM/Astaroth 1p and Cervy 2p. With cervy record his 6B then use throw with 1p, NM will miss Asta will grab. Rock actually misses to :P

Hope with helps a bit.
 

Vlaster

[09] Warrior
try doing 6 or 4 A,B+G

in SC3 id notice, if u do the throws pressing foward (example 6B+G) the char make a kind of sound, in SC4 nightmare says "hmm!!" or something like that, if u doesnt push foward, the throw animation doesnt have sound. i have the impretion that throws have more range by pressing 4 or 6.

another thing i check in SC4 is after nightmare do the 1aK or 1[a]K on block or on air, if u do a throw after this, the throw animation is different, nightmare,s hand is open, but i didnt found any use for this :(
 

microgamer

[10] Knight
...another thing i check in SC4 is after nightmare do the 1aK or 1[a]K on block or on air, if u do a throw after this, the throw animation is different, nightmare,s hand is open, but i didnt found any use for this :(
Are you talking about doing 1aK (whiff or block), then doing A+G/B+G afterward? I'll check what you're talking about sometime today.
 

microgamer

[10] Knight
Yeah, you're right. Post 1aK, his claw is open for throws and for 4KK. This also works post 6K2_8, because that move causes NM's claw to open up too. I doubt there's a significance to the animation though, it's most likely glitch similar to how Algol's weapons sometimes stick out even after finishing a move. I really don't know if there's any difference though.

You're right about the 6 or 4 throw too. I can't confirm any difference with range or anything, but there's definitely a change in the audio cue.
 
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