Critics on Nightmare

[Spidey]

With your pros said he is definitelly top tier :P

Imo NM has the best RO game, ok Hilde can ring out from a mile away but doesnt have variety.
Hmm what r his TC moves? :P I can think of 11K and 66K, maybe FC 3B.
He has very good tech traps, imo very equal to Sieg's maybe slightly worse.

NM can RO without CH actually. Like WS , GS KK or 1A, GS KK and many other ways.

Also imo NM is a high risk very high reward char.
I would rank him as at least bottom high tier.

Btw, agA jfs rule!

 

[SWBeta]

micro, I'm going to pick on you today.

Nightmare also rapes people with tech traps, and has 44BB to pressure people into teching-- that's a mixup.

That's only the case when 3B connects. You mix up between 1A trap or 44BB.
With ch ws (B) > NSS A+B, the 66B or 44BB trap is entirely negated by just holding G and not teching. At that point, you can do regular combo ender 2A+B or 33B for miniscule, guaranteed damage. You can't throw right afterward, because the opponent won't be fully standing by the time the grab's impact frame is active. You can wait, but the opponent can/will notice the delay and 2A.

NM has a lot of highs, but they're solid (his throws are long ranged, agA is fast and is neutral on block, 66A is long ranged and is very good on block as well) and they give people an incentive to duck-- which opens them up to mids; that's a plus. 2A and other tech crouches only shut down the lame stance 'block trap' setups like 33B6 and 66K6. In other situations, NM still has ways to deal with tech crouch attacks.

You won't believe how much stuff gets TC'd, even after the TC move in question is finished animating.

•66A is slow. If you're lucky and it connects on that rare occasion, you get 11B free. Yay.
•a:G+A I only use to kill step. And that's after I visually confirm that they are indeed stepping. None of that anticipation BS. I used to use it as step killer and whiff punisher ala deathfist, then I realized that it whiffs way too much because of TC. Nothing better than whiffing a whiff punish.
•Same problem with 6A.
•Same problem with 6K.

etc, etc.

Only mid pokes he has are 3K and 11K, and 3K got screwed for no logical reason.

66K6 is good 'cause it's a fast tech crouching mid. Yeah, it doesn't combo into anything on NH or CH (if there isn't a wall), but you still have GS A and GS KK to frame trap and you have GS B to apply Soul Gauge pressure once they start blocking. This is the reason why WR AA6 isn't a complete joke either. WR AA6 to GS B applies more Soul Gauge pressure if people insist on blocking, expecting to punish GS A or the second hit of WR AA. People will be hesitant to interrupt or GI GS B because you have GS A or finishing out the natural string.

2A still beats out post-66K6 on block. Only option from 66K6 that is a frame trap, iirc, is GS KK. And no one is crazy enough to use that. ws AA6 has no frame traps afterward, so 2A beats all GS followups out.

To get the best results from GS, just do the 236 motion from neutral stance. It's too fast for people to 2A, so stuff will actually connect on occasion. Only move with GS stance change that should be used more than once is probably 1[A], if the opponent likes to block it instead of GI/jump it.

Nightmare has mixups, they're just not conventional for the most part. GS is a mixup because you can apply block pressure or interrupt/counter GI/catch step, or you can go into FC to mixup with lows or WR mids.

2A doesn't allow you do apply FC mixups. The delay you have to make for GS to become FC is noticable enough to 2A before any flapjacks/ws B_Ks/lows come out.

My opinion on NM is that he is by no means a pushover, the person playing him just has to think harder and outside of the box. I'm actually of the opinion that there are things about him that are 'undiscovered' and that his play style has room to grow. I have my fair share of complaints with him, but a lot of people have nerfed movesets in this game (compared to SC2), so I look on the brightside and work to make NM better.

As of now, high risk, mid to low reward, imo. Most, if not all, of his high damage stuff comes from ch ws (B) and 3B. I'll use ch ws (B) as an example because that's where his most damaging stuff comes from.

this is the most damaging thing nm has (without walls), so far:
ch ws (B) > NSS A+B > 44B(B) tech trap > NSS (A) tech trap > NSS B.

You have to apply 50/50 twice and have the opponent guess wrong both times to get any decent damage. You have to find some way to force that ch ws B to connect in the first place, before any of this can happen. Asta gets a retarded-to-break hcb B+G > 22_88B for more damage than the damage you get if your opponent guesses wrong on the 44B(B)/66B 50/50. Your opponent could bypass that 50/50 altogether by just holding G after NSS A+B.

And that 22_88B after Asta's throw is guaranteed. The break window is enough to get people scared enough to twitch duck, at least. NM has nothing makes people want to duck. Flapjacks can be broken from standing, and you don't even have to guess. Break B if nm's back is to the edge of the ring. Break A every other time. If the nm mixes things up, take the damage. All nm gets is a miniscule BT 2K after flapjack B. Stay down after flapjack A and take the miniscule damage from ground hit 33B. Break standing throws. Break B throw if NM's back is to the edge, break A every other time. If nm mixes it up, he gets nothing after B throw. After A throw, just side roll. You have enough time to crouch block if you see anti-side roll 1[A] coming.

1A can't even be used in standard mixups because you can block it on reaction. Post a:G+A or 4A, if someone likes to mix up 3B/33B with 1A, just block high. You have enough time to see the 1A coming and press 2 to guard low.

Everything is 50/50 after 50/50 after 50/50. You can't survive on 50/50s only. Especially if some of those 50/50s can be negated altogether. Granted, nm isn't 100% 50/50s, but he's close enough, as of this point.


Fuck, I said I wasn't going to bitch anymore. Eh. Q.Q

 

[Tiamat]

You have to apply 50/50 twice and have the opponent guess wrong both times to get any decent damage. You have to find some way to force that ch ws B to connect in the first place, before any of this can happen. Asta gets a retarded-to-break hcb B+G > 22_88B for more damage than the damage you get if your opponent guesses wrong on the 44B(B)/66B 50/50. Your opponent could bypass that 50/50 altogether by just holding G after NSS A+B.

Wrong. first off, a 44BB/66B trap is generally doing to do more damage than Asta's B grab combo. Secondly, you say the opponent can hold G to beat the mixup after NSS A+B? there is indeed a way to beat that mixup but certainly not HOLDING G, because that makes you get tech trapped by 66B

I am too lazy to bother nitpicking everyone's posts so this is just another example. Take everything you guys read in this topic with a grain of salt, people are saying incorrect info all over the place in here.

 

[Promiethius]

With your pros said he is definitelly top tier :P

Imo NM has the best RO game, ok Hilde can ring out from a mile away but doesnt have variety.
Hmm what r his TC moves? :P I can think of 11K and 66K, maybe FC 3B.
He has very good tech traps, imo very equal to Sieg's maybe slightly worse.

NM can RO without CH actually. Like WS , GS KK or 1A, GS KK and many other ways.

Also imo NM is a high risk very high reward char.
I would rank him as at least bottom high tier.

Btw, agA jfs rule!

Oh yeah, forgot to say Aga JF is awesome aswell. What i had said was, if the opponent is standing and guarding, you can't RO them if they break A. Cause if they don't duck, you can't hit them with any mids, 1a and 2[k] is too slow, and if you try to flip them, break A. The reason why Nightmare can RO well is because of CH and WS B on hit. However, if they just guard near the edge, your not RO them out if they know NM.

Second, Hilde does have variety with her RO's. People don't realize this but, Hilde is amazing even without her combos. I am dead serious. No one can RO like Hilde. Hilde is the best character in Sc4. Ill boldy argue it to anyone, lol.

Bottom high tier? He is too slow, too punishable and too stopable to be high tier, lol.

 

[Tiamat]

However, if they just guard near the edge, your not RO them out if they know NM.

So far as I can tell this applies to ALL characters. However, by guarding near the edge they leave themselves vulnerable to throws. Strong RO potential causes the opponent to turtle up, so it's not good simply because of direct RO, but also the threat of it, which allows you to mixup the opponent.

 

[SWBeta]

Secondly, you say the opponent can hold G to beat the mixup after NSS A+B? there is indeed a way to beat that mixup but certainly not HOLDING G, because that makes you get tech trapped by 66B

All you have to do is stand and guard. If holding G makes you tech, then just wait until you fall, then press G to stand/guard.

Also, if someone can, please test & note the damage for Asta HCB B+G throw > 22_88B and note the damage for ch ws > NSS A+B > 44BB, and ch ws > NSS A+B > 66B > 33B6 > GS KK. Even if I'm wrong and the 66B follow up does more damage, there's no way the 44BB trap takes more than 22_88B followup to the throw.

Even if both do take more damage, it still doesn't change the fact that the mix up can be negated altogether. Guaranteed damage still owns that shit.

NM is just a cut above mina, rock, and maxi, imo. Right next to Zas, imo. Sieg and NM are not even. Sieg can at least make people want to duck sometimes. That makes Sieg > nm.

 

[Tiamat]

that's not what you SAID though, you said to HOLD guard which is not true

-_-

 

[SWBeta]

that's not what you SAID though, you said to HOLD guard which is not true

-_-

That's true. That was a mistake on my part. If you read what I wrote, I wrote "by holding G and not teching." I know what I was talking about; the mistake I made was that I thought by holding G and not pressing any direction, you could stand striaght up and guard without teching. Slight miscommunication on my part, but the overall message is the same: Just standing straight up and guarding negates the 66B/44BB 50/50 tech trap.

 

[WuHT]

That's true. That was a mistake on my part. If you read what I wrote, I wrote "by holding G and not teching." I know what I was talking about; the mistake I made was that I thought by holding G and not pressing any direction, you could stand striaght up and guard without teching. Slight miscommunication on my part, but the overall message is the same: Just standing straight up and guarding negates the 66B/44BB 50/50 tech trap.

which is done by tapping G once to stand ..and holding it once you're upright ?

 

[Spidey]

U ppl really think NM is crappy cause he is just hard to use. He is actually the easiest char to play up to a lvl where he just ring outs any foolish opponent with minimum effort. Advancing this lvl u have to do some other techniques such as the aA jfs (fast and slow, especially slow). Imo the most important thing is to learn to play at NM's max range, this is what makes NM safer.

Also RO and crazy tech trap dmg + big wall dmg + soul charge+ knockdowns isnt low reward.

 

[SWBeta]

which is done by tapping G once to stand ..and holding it once you're upright ?

Yep. That's where the miscommunication came from. Apparently, pressing and holding G before you fall makes you tech. I thought it was the same as pressing and holding G after you fall.

 

[LAU]

Anyways... don't know if it matters... but here's my say.

Regardless of the character you play... you'll pretty much always have bad matchups some worst than others.... however these characters are not "hopeless". Regardless if it's Rock or Mina or Maxi, 95% of the time the players that actually think they suck ends up to not know about the character well enough. At the end of the day.. it's all about guessing right and wrong at the right time. and that's all there is to it...

NM does have all the weakness above.. but people tend to forget to mention these things

1) jagA = block +8 to 10... if you don't even TRY to do this.. or you haven't practice it.. you have no rights to talk about how bad NM is.
2) iagA = i15 punisher.. sure it's hard to use as block punish but it's there... and you can practice it... you can also use it outside of block punish.. and on block this gives +1...
3) NM's got one of the best throw games in this game.. it's comparable to Astas, Rock's, Ivy's etc.... I won't bother explaining why.. you should just do your homework if you don't see why.
4) Risk vs Rewards.... sure... NM is extremely punishable his stance got flaws and stuff... however... who said i'm going into stance ALL the time? and not to mention your way to punish my stance is a 10 dmg move???? with no guarantees? and if you fail to do that.. i get a retarded combo that can RO, with an insane tech trap and anti-tech trap game? You say you never fail to punish NSS/GS properly.... i do believe that.. but what are you doing with your character.. you NEVER attack? you just sit there and wait to punish? (oh right.. that's what 90% of the players do against NM).... ok now you're prone to getting mixed up by mids/throws... and chances are... if you can punish NM easily you do less damage than him... and if you do more damage than him... you probably can't punish those as easily... and if you have BOTH... well you're one of the VERY few good matchups against NM... risk vs reward.... is definately more balance now. Although a move is punishable.. doesn't mean you can't use it... if the punishment is only 10 to 20 damage... when you're trying to do 60+ damage combo + ring out/wall + tech traps that can lead to another 60 + ring out/wall i say it's very worth it.

5) NM's got the best wall game better than any other characters... and that does mean something.... example... setsuka got an extremely good RO game as well not as good as NM's but good enough to be one of the better RO characters.. however... if you're in a caged match.. setsuka's RO game is meaningless because her wall game sucks.... however NM's wall or ring is still good.

6) B+K -> NSS = best spacing move in the game... if you can't apply this properly... or never seen an NM that does this well.. you got no rights to say NM sucks... and if you use this properly you can score a RO/Combo.... there's a lot of characters that will own NM for free.. but with B+K... instead of having an advantage over NM.. things are kinda reversed just because of this one move.



-LAU

 

[ioKain]

I wouldn't say Sets wall game sucks, sure it's not as good as NM's, but it doesn't suck. Avg. wall combo dmg for her is 80 and if you eat B+K, 63B, 33A+B into a wall your up in the 120's for dmg.

 

[KingAce]

Nightmare shouldn't be used by little girly men.

 

[LAU]

I wouldn't say Sets wall game sucks, sure it's not as good as NM's, but it doesn't suck. Avg. wall combo dmg for her is 80 and if you eat B+K, 63B, 33A+B into a wall your up in the 120's for dmg.

I think i said it sucks mainly because there aren't exactly that many ways or that many easy ways to start the wall combo as far as i know.

but with NM... anything that RO is basically a wall combo starter

from what i remember.. it's not the same with setsuka.. you can't exactly umbrella -> wall -> massive wall combo.

-LAU

 

[ioKain]

Not trying to derail the thread but she has a lot more than Umbrella......trust me. :D

 

[Spidey]

Well said Lau :)

To add sth, fast aA is i14 (maybe situation but i manage to punish -14 moves) and +2 on block. NM wall game is equally good to his RO game, by now u should know that his RO is fantastic :P

Cervantes might have better wall game but as Lau said about setsuka he also doesnt have variety for a wall combo start. Sieg on the other hand has crappy RO game but very good wall game.

NM IS powerful.

 

[Tiamat]

Sieg on the other hand has crappy RO game but very good wall game.

I do not see how it is possible to have a good wall game but a bad RO game. I could understand having a good RO game and a bad wall game, but not the reverse. Getting a wallsplat in the first place means it woulda been a RO if the wall wasn't there.

 

[microgamer]

This post reserved for my reply to SWBeta's post. I will respond, it's just that school is starting and I wanna double check some things in the game before posting my points.

 

[eltoshan]

Nightmare shouldn't be used by little girly men.

Yep, people fail at using NM because they can't handle his manliness.

Slightly offtrack about setsuka wall game, but IMO it is almost as good as NM's, higher overall damage but no tech traps afterwards. But I think her wall game is easier to start, since she has plenty moves that will launch on NH or combo into 22A+BA wall hit, where as NM pretty much relies on the B throws, CH WS B, CH GS A 4KK, 1A6 GS KK, etc, which has worse properties compared to setsuka's combo starters.

But about how manly NM is, his step game is awesome. 11K, 9B, NH 1K, and 1B are all great for setting up step. NH 1K B+K makes so many characters whiff, and you get the free NSS A+B. The combination of stepping and B+K post NH 1K is win, and if they keep blocking after NH 1K, well, free mixup.

NM also has the manliest techtraps in the game, you can trap off of pretty much everything, and I doubt many people will be able to avoid the tech traps and anti-tech traps consistently under-pressure. And yeah, NM's wall game is beastly, 2[K] rapes people on walls, and when they start sleeping after wall hits they take 44B for epic damage.

The point is, NM is über manly.