Hilde Guide & Strategy Discussion

Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

Cirex said:
2A+K is very slow indeed, but it's safe.
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I stand corrected =p

i27, -10 on block. Brownie points for being safe!

Technically it's a fast low compared to 11K and 2A+B since both are very slightly slower. Wierd that I find people block this better than 11k.

Opinions everyone?

I'll say that all three of these lows are slow and comparible.

2A+K, knock down + safe - Not hit grounded.
11K , no knock down + safe (-12 on block, but you're tc the whole time), hits grounded, lets you charge A and B.
2A+B, knock down, nc with K, safe by itself, restuns if grounded hit.

I would say that looking at the frame data, 11k should be used only when charging A and/or B, since 2A+K for standing opponents, 2A+B for grounded (since you get better effects).


~Fei
 
Top 10 Moves: Hilde

I find it odd that there is no top 10 moves thread for Hilde yet. Maybe it's because everyone plays her differently...anyway, what do you think Hilde's top 10 moves are? My opinion (in no particular order):

C3 A Series--Fast, safe on block, good knockback.
C3 B Series--Relatively safe, high damage potential with juggles
1K[K]--Fast low that interrupts a lot more than it should. Good for pressure.
33_99K--Unsafe, but great range and good priority. Shakeable stun on hit can yield high damage off combos.
11_77K--Seems completely safe. A good complement to Hilde's otherwise mid-heavy game. Much better range than 1K.
6A+K--Incredible speed, but very short range and hits high. Good when forced into a close fight.
BB--Slow for a BB, but it has huge range and does decent Soul Gauge damage. A great spacing tool since it also tracks a little.
2A--It's 2A...what else needs to be said?
6A+B--Great priority and range. Not very safe, but let's you start charging either A or B. I start a lot of my matches with this move.
3BA--Good for punishment and RO. I use it a lot after hitting with 33_99K. Is unsafe, but does good Soul Gauge damage on block. Haven't found a use for 3BB yet...any suggestions?
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

Hello Fei.

I managed to get time to read your guide... and I do not agree with most of it because of inaccuracies and well some clashes in opinion. It is okay to disagree with me.

I play with a stick and I am strongly against button binding... It would make her too overpowered IMO.

I will tackle my disagreements in each category of your guide one by one.

NOTE: I do not mean to sound hostile. I am trying very hard to disgree nicely. I am aware i suck in being tactful lol. please try to see this in a constructive light

Hilde is at best a mid-tier character. She is only mid-tier because of TWO moves. Her Charge A moves and her Charge 3 B. (We'll be referring to them as C1 A, C2 A, C3 B, etc.) The reason is that on most characters, a single hit on either will do over 30% damage (70-100 damage) or automatically ring out from ridiculous ranges. The rest of her move list are rather low damage defensive stuff that many would consider as "good" moves, but in reality, they hardly win games on their own.
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I believe that Hilde is top tier. Those two moves you mentioned that make her mid tier, coupled with FC C2B are among the reasons why she is top IMO... I don't agree with judging a character's strengths with just those moves. I feel that she is top because of those moves, her incredible safety, strong pokes, superb step, ability to play at any range, ringout game and good damage.

That means that i disagree with the statement that "the rest of her move list are rather low damage defensive stuff that many would consider as "good" moves, but in reality, they hardly win games on their own". This is so as... moves like 3A are not really low damage, and are for offensive purposes... it only tech crouches highs when at advantage. Her 3K has good damage for a 3K and has good range. C1A and FC C1A as pokes are stupid strong because they give good advantage on hit, do good damage for pokes and leave her at 0 to -2. I feel that the statement is a big overgeneralisation.

Pros

* +Ridiculous ring out game
* +A large vocabulary of safe moves

Cons

* -Somewhat steep execution learning curve (at some points you may be holding up to three buttons down while trying to block mid, low, or breaking throws.)
* -Pretty awful damage potential outside of landing C3 B
* -Combos are character specific
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I feel the pros are kind of understated. Her pokes do good damage, due to C1As and 3A. She has very powerful whiff punishing abilities. She also has very solid lows... 11K, 2A+B, 2A+K are all safe. She also does good damage (Will be explained later).

Under the 'Cons' section, there is nothing wrong imo with combos being character specific :/ I also have an issue with the statement that her damage is 'awful'... FC C2B does 100 damage.. fC C2A on CH, when killing step gives 67-80 damage, which is good damage. C3A 4A+B (40+) or C3A C2BB C2AA (60+) is also good damage. 1K CHK 4A+B is also good damage for such a simple mixup. 2A+B 2B+K is 37 damage for a safe low that pushes out... and that is already alot of damage for any low. Her wall throw to the back does a whopping 90 damage... CH FC C3 AKB B+K C2BB C2AA is also alot of damage... so yeah i find it hard to agree that she does little damage.

About the combos section... I have little problems with that.. but its my opinion that she does not need the big ringout combo to really win :/ I can gloss over this because it is not as important in the big picture...

Look for places and ways to land C3 B or any variation that goes into charge based juggles and win.
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I have a bit of an issue with this... the same result can be obtained with FC C2B... Moreover, having a fixation on landing the launcher is dangerous as it becomes easier to predict... but at least there is the mention of 'Look(ing) for places and ways' to land the C3B to suggest that you are factoring the choices of your opponent in a match... so yeah its some what agreeable.

For the rest of the guide... I have issues here because of inaccuracies. I won't disagree with the way you think Hilde should be played 100%. We all have our own special ways of playing her.. so yeah ill deal with some facts.

3A - Counterhit fish with this. Block something and throw 3A out if you want. Use after A+B on block. After 2A on hit.
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3A only ducks under highs when Hilde is at advantage.. and its like i19 or i20. which is really really pretty slow. So you have to mix it up with 3Ks or 6Ks if the opponent chooses to not do a high. How do you do a 3A after 2A hits? won't you get an FC2A.

2A or 2K - Both serve the same function, 2A gives advantage 2K is low
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I don't beleive they serve the same function. 2A gives alot more advantage on CH and leads to much more options... plus it is a better interrupter than 2K as it is faster by one frame.. and 2A kills step and 2K does not. so yeah i don't think its the same function.

1A - Low poke, doesn't give advantage, but most people stop moving after getting hit with this.
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This low is ultra unsafe. Still the problem here is that imo, high level players will most likely continue to attack.

4AK - Decent string. Good damage (considering it's Hilde) on counterhit.
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By my standards, i think this string is obscene. Its hitcheckable.. and its safe.. Best part is that the K is delayable, making 4A into a low or a mid very viable.

At long range you should do nothing but charge whore (charge both A and B, wiff an "A" if you have to). All of your best moves *which incidentally are the longest range moves in the game* can all be evaded by anyone simply holding up or down and 8way walking. Again, disclaimer: All this stuff is rather linear.
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C3B kills step/8wr to hilde's left and the CAs kill those to the right... so the mixup is to guess if they are going to move forward, left or right. On block, Hilde is in a desirable position because they pushout/give frame advantage. moreover if opponents just run up and gaurd, you can play a two choice between a FC C2B or throw or 2A+K/2A+B..

Ok i am very tired now lol. There is alot more I would like to criticise constructively.. and I would continue to do the rest of the post in the future. :/

No offense dude. just my opinion
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

I fully agree with Yumi (except for the button binding situation). Though one note is that 4AK is a good way to ring people out, thats my main use for it.
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

@Ravianuel_Yumi: Great post! It's about time we got some solid discussion going on!

Note: You make many points to say that you're not hostile, as such, I've read nothing in your reply that offends me in anyway. If we're too close minded, learning anything becomes hard =p (However, this does not mean I agree with everything you've responded with as well, lets discuss =p)

So without further adui~

Button binding is a personal preference. But I'll give you my opinion too =p SC is a fighting game. Fighting games IMO should be about using moves to fight someone else. Fighting games should NOT BE IMO about how dextrious someone is. It should lean more on a person imagining the movelist as tools to play out a fight. A character does not become more "OP" just because you can use her tools, when you want to.

It looks to me that more or less you just don't like the way I'm introducing Hilde. I agree with you that her charge stuff is great. But I'm saying those two moves are what keeps her from being rather low. You follow by pointing out a series of characteristics that exsist in many characters ie "Strong Poke, Good Step, Safe." And I have also mentioned that she has good ring out and that she's safe. I do not agree that she can be played long range, since there is nothing really active at long range that will prevent someone from just idly 8way walking around. The tier discussion I believe is all our current opinions anyways.

You followed with reasons why my statement about her low damage is wrong. You point out that her 3K is good dmg for a 3K. 3K's typically do about as much damage as an AA, her's really isn't any different. "Good for a 3K" does not convince me her 3K does good damage. You point out that her C1A and FC C1A give advantage on hit and that they do "good" damage. They do slightly less than most BB's, I consider the damage rather small. Also, most attacks on hit give advantage, which leaves me to wonder why you're adressing this point. So concluding the intdroduction, I feel that my "generalizations" are accurate and are propperly placed where short summary's go, in the introduction.

I can understand where you're coming from when you're pointing out some damage factors. But I feel that you missed an important part of my tone. I mean for this guide to be a primer for new Hilde players, if you look around these forums, at best information is scattered and very difficult to come to conclusions. With that said, let me use for instance my rampant hype of C3 B. C3 B is a great move. I know that it is not an "end all" move. However, I push it as if it was. When I say C3 B, I simply want to get the point across that it's good (when in reality, it can be subsituted by any move that leads into her charge stuff). Any player with any ability to learn will understand quickly how they will need to use other moves, C3 B is just the starting point. The damage examples you've listed under the "cons" section all come from charge based moves outside of a throw, 1KK, and 2A+B, I say that all her damage comes from C3 B, which isn't completely true, but as I've said before, it's just a starting point. I could have said "aweful damage outside of landing a random charge moves," but blanantly saying C3 B is more to the point.

I do not find anything I disagree with when you talk about her play. Your options / suggestions/ etc are all spot on with insight I didn't consider when writting.

A point where I agree is at long range. I point out to charge agressively because her non charge moves are linear and easy to evade. You follow with the advantages of charge A and B.

Again, I want to say that the guide is intended with the mindset of starting a person with some framework of playing Hilde. At higher levels, moves, fights, and strategies become much more character/player specific, and I am pretty sure I point this out.

If you have the time, absolutely brush over the guide again and adress other issues, infact, if you have specific things that you do, that I haven't listed, tell us why =p

~Fei
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

@Fei
On the point of long range, Most long range characters are fairly linear. Killik can be dodged by either 8WR or by ducking. Cervante's long range is very easily side stepped. Mina doesn't matter since she wants us out of her face, and we can punish her for trying anyway.

The point of long range is that you CAN hit at the range. Not whether or not the opponent can dodge it. The whole idea of long range is the "keep away" game which means that short range characters have to come in. At which point you have - C3B for range, C3A for rushing steppers or throws for rushing blockers. And that's just the 'basic' range moves.
If we're talking char specific -
Against Sieg's/Nmare's/Asta's 1A chains - 6B+K, 4A+B for a tech jump solution.
Killik A spamers - WS B for decent range + tech crouch.
Mina - What are you doing at range? Rush in and let her fail at trying to space you!

I'm kinda at a mind blank, but if you mention a long range char and the move they'd be using, I'll try think up a Hilde counter for it.
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

@Runis:

I see the point you're trying to make. But in theory-calibur, any offense based motion has a counter, especially at range. All of your examples describe opponents making the first action (in which case, pretty much all characters have punishes to all moves).

I'm suggesting that "anti" Hilde at long range doesn't require thought, more or less just hold up, guard on reaction if Hilde rushes you for any apparent reason. Which is why her long range offense is linear.

When you run up to the opponent, I no longer consider you being at long range. C3 A, a great solution to steppers, is not a long range tool.

At that note however, something I seriously want to discuss~ Let's talk about her tools!

C A series : General Solution to everything via Auto Gi
22A : Steps
9K : Tech Jumps
FC C B series: Crouch Moves
1B: Retreat Step
2A+K: Tech Crouch
11B: Step Punishier
66A: Anti Step
2A: Interupts Stuff

Go through her move list, tell me about her tools =p Who does stuff better than her, who does stuff worse. Opinions?

~Fei
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

Not going to go into it too much, but pretty much, if you're at Long (not mid) range, chance are you're charging up either C3A/C3B. I'm just stating counter moves she could dish out while doing that (and assuming you double bind). But lets not get into 'that' discussion.

6B+K - tech jumps and catches back step. - problem is that it's slow (her slowest move at i33)
4A+B - Catches backstep, good for combos off alot of her KND moveset.
1KK - Honorable mention for the 'Bell sound' the second hit makes if it is a CH on a male.
WS B - one of her best TC moves IMO. I find that I get hit out of her FC CXB moves unless their used as a punisher rather than a Counter.
4AK - Back Steps and has a delayable K for mixup/mindgames.
C3A - you mentioned C A series, but C3A gets a special mention based on 1.) It GI's ALL mids/highs, not just horizontals. 2.) You can chain a C2BB off it, netting a potential 44K C2BB etc Death combo depending on if the C2BB off the C3A hits at the very tip and is buffered correctly.

IMO, only thing Hilde does poorly - is a Rush Game. her stuff is solid, but not quick enough or give enough frames for a decent rush game.
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

Runis said:
IMO, only thing Hilde does poorly - is a Rush Game. her stuff is solid, but not quick enough or give enough frames for a decent rush game.
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I think a lot of people might disagree with you here. Some people have been saying she has a pretty strong close game (notice: I didn't say rush, since I'm not sure how to interpert those words).

On the other moves, 1kk BELL is pretty top tier. *Nod
6B+K is hilarious as long as the opponent feels like standing perfectly still (dear in headlights,... without the headlights.)
4A+B has amazing animation, even though it's moderately slow, it looks really really fast.

WSB imo should be checked against WSK, WSK is mid, and faster, less range, but typically, I find myself fearing the use of WSB. WSK vs WSB, opinion?

For ex. if I block a random low, I'd on reaction toss a WSK to see if it's punishable. I wouldn't throw a WSB because I fear tech crouch, and WSK is faster.

~Fei
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

Ahh Fei, now you've got me into the "TC vs Speed" debate...
The reason I like WSB, is because it tech crouches from frame 1 I think.

And what I mean by "Rush" is Quick moves used in succession which force the opponent to continue blocking, as they are fast and give enough frames to maintain an assault. I have trouble finding ways of maintaining pressure that the opponent won't just try to block and then throw an AA or 2A to stop. (Other than possibly abusing 1B's backstep TJ low pokeability.)
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

IMO, C2BB 3BA is not as useful as C2BB C2AA.

First, 3BA does not have C2AA's travelator slide factor for the Ring-outs.
Second, 3BA will only Wall slam ONCE compared to C2AA's twice.
Third, C2AA cannot be AC'd. I think you can AC Back to dodge 3BA.
Fourth, C2BB C2AA is a tech trap for a C2BB.

I would like to note however, the semi-usefulness of 1KK after C2BB.
there's only ONE point in which it is useful, and that is if your opponent has a tendency to AC Back out of habit. If this is the case, when you're faced with a half wall, replace C2AA with 1KK as it 'lets' them AC and lifts them slightly so that if they do AC Back, they actually RO themselves. This requires quite a fair bit of Yomi however, and will not work on everyone.
Against people who regularly play Hilde, I doubt they will be AC'ing OR Teching, especially since Hilde Combo's can't be AC'd and there's a massive tech trap in C2BB C2AA
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

On the other hand, I feel that ch 1KK ~> 3BA is fine =p

~Fei
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

He does, it's more formally known as the "Death combo"
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

Feiiiiiiiii it's RickSteakS ^-^, u and ur stupid xianghua - ivy counter, lol j.k sup dude :].. never thought i'd find u here .__. uhmm about the topic... hilde rocks :] ring out combo ftw
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

man u guys are too into this strategy vs thing too much, just play the game, everyone is different with their own styles in their character, find your own strategy according to your own style and just adjust according to the opponent. :/
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

Runis said:
IMO, C2BB 3BA is not as useful as C2BB C2AA.

First, 3BA does not have C2AA's travelator slide factor for the Ring-outs.
Second, 3BA will only Wall slam ONCE compared to C2AA's twice.
Third, C2AA cannot be AC'd. I think you can AC Back to dodge 3BA.
Fourth, C2BB C2AA is a tech trap for a C2BB.

I would like to note however, the semi-usefulness of 1KK after C2BB.
there's only ONE point in which it is useful, and that is if your opponent has a tendency to AC Back out of habit. If this is the case, when you're faced with a half wall, replace C2AA with 1KK as it 'lets' them AC and lifts them slightly so that if they do AC Back, they actually RO themselves. This requires quite a fair bit of Yomi however, and will not work on everyone.
Against people who regularly play Hilde, I doubt they will be AC'ing OR Teching, especially since Hilde Combo's can't be AC'd and there's a massive tech trap in C2BB C2AA
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Oh, I absolutely agree that C2AA is better than 3BA, but sometimes I find myself without the right charge. And everyone I play against hates both C2BB C2AA, and C2BB 3BA equally because they both ring out often for me.

Oh, and Woahhzz, that's the whole reason for this forum. Strategery. =P If we just want to play the game, we'd...uh...be playing it right now. Or we're at work and not doing any work.

I don't want to say I'm a good Hilde player since I can't play online worth a crap (lag WHY), and I only play within my community of about 4 really good players, and a bunch of other crappy people I'm trying to make better.
 
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