Matchups subthread

Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Just in case reposting too
http://www.8wayrun.com/f33/mitsurugi-matchups-chart-t4200/
Mitsu vs:
Algol - 4/6
Amy - 6/4
Astaroth - 6/4
Cassandra - 4/6
Cervantes - 4/6
Darth Vader - 6/4
Hilde - 2/8
Ivy - 4/6
Kilik - 4/6
Lizard - 6/4
Maxi - 6/4 (Saitoh says its 6/4 I say its 7/3 but I think he knows better)
Nightmare - 6/4
Raphael - 4/6
Rock - 7/3
Mina - 6/4
Sestuka - 4/6
Siegfried - 6/4
Sophitia - 4/6
Taki - 4/6
Talim - 7/3
Apprentice -
Tira - 6/4
Voldo - 3/7
Xianghua - 5/5
Yoda -
Yoshitmitsu - 6/4
YunSeong - 7/3
Zasalamel - 4/6

And my opinion on Yun
Yun vs Amy - 4-6
Yun vs Mitsu - 3-7
Yun vs Sophitia - 3/7
Yun vs Cassandra - 3/7
Yun vs Astaroth - 3/7
Yun vs Raphael - 6/4
Yun vs Xiang - 3/7
Yun vs Cervy - 3/7
Yun vs Voldo - 3/7
Yun vs Setsuka - 3/7
Yun vs Hilde - 2/8
Yun vs Kilik - 4/6
Yun vs Ivy - 3/7
Yun vs NM - 4/6 (not sure)
Yun vs Siegfried - 4/6 (3/7?)
Yun vs Taki - 4/6
Yun vs Yoshi - 4/6
Yun vs Zas - 5/5
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Oh BTW Belial, can you explain (again maybe?) why Raphael got the advantage over Mitsu ? I think it's a range issue because I remember having trouble with that when I was playing Mitsu against DTN's Raphael, but it was a loooooong time ago !

I think I agree with you on that one but I'm not confident enough to explain this to others players =)
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

i agree with Belial's lists, tho I don't really know shit about Yun, but Yun and Mitsu vs Raph numbers are interesting...

I like your Sieg vs X breakdown ShenYuan, but I still disagree because I've always considered Sieg trash because he's slow (way slower than X) and all of his moves are easy to block (especially compared to X). He can't do too much about punishing X and moreso than most other characters (except Rock and maybe Astaroth, but at least Astaroth has a far better range game and safer grab mixups), he relies very heavily on grabbing, which X can fc3B him for attempting. I can see how Sieg wsA could be a nuisance at range tho, if you're tryin to play for CF (I don't know how much gauge damage it does alone, but it's good for keep away), I'm just not familiar with people using that move in that way. So maybe it's not an easy matchup for X, but 5:5 would be alot more fair.

Astaroth vs. X, X can't really do any of her evasive shit safely and range is a problem, I won't argue that one.

Sophie mixups...who uses 236236B as a mixup? I've seen vids where people do that, but it wouldn't work against alot of people. that's very difficult to land. BB lands much easier, BB/grab, that's about all she's got.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Looks like we're running into the same problem we had with the first match-up chart. There are just too many match-ups and not a large enough player pool for each one to be tested thoroughly. That leaves a lot of variables unaccounted for and results mostly in puffery and disagreement.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Saitoh - thats easy and you are completey right about range issue.
Raphael has a very easy time punishing everything at any range with his prime move - 3B~prepBB (even BB works i think). bA, RLC B, basically anything he blocks where no other character gets free hits (even maximum range) raphael can punish and that's easy to do. Against stance he still has a decent options and damaging ones, he doesnt usually get against other characters. You can see me vs edge for reference
, finally mitsu cannot really punish Raphael very hard for his stuff. I.e even when stepped 22_88A wont work if he stay in prep. Throws wont work often b/c auto SEA, 3B will often wiff if he does stuff like prep BB (to advance forward on wiff and other cases) , where simple step doesnt really help leaving you vulnerable to SEA B/A mix up (even though bad it tracks different sides) and VE (even though bad too, good players will learn to work around it if you just wait to block and punish, and keep SG damage in mind too). So best options from rugi are timed 88B (beats all options from prep and SE), 66BB beats all but prep A (sometimes doesnt work well on prep K) and 6B+K~MST beats prep A, also works against blank transitions and just some options from prep. Those are good but somewhat not very easy to do. Now I must add those are ON BLOCK, and usually raphael doesnt spam 3B on block, so its hard to anticipate in the first place. Same about VE, to bring reward high you need to punish VE A with either A+K or 4KB, and mist duck throws and sometimes K (b/c punishment on K is unimpressive). For example even if they mess justframe on 22BVEBB you still dont get good punishment (although you can mst evade on guard but who does it on guard ,see skill project for more). aGI on 44B is unimpressive damage too(most other characters can do better, so basic GI is best option for mitsu), well basically for EVERY raphael unsafe or wiff you dont get anything significant unless you do some crazy stuff.

So to sum it up, to punish raph well you need a lot of concentration and anticipation, knowledge etc, its easy to mess up. and basic punishment is hardly impressive, sidestep punishment doesnt work as well. Mitsu spacing tools are very limited by raphaels punishment, while raphael can move around freely and control range. If your opponent mains Raphael (like Edge does) it becomes very annoying to fight him, since hardly many people play Raphael main (and since Raphael sucks overall) it is usually enough to get two consecutive correct guesses for mitsu to win the game. so it might become a 5:5 from that perspective.
Also you and me pay a lot of attention to spacing matters, I noticed not many people share this view, that is why often we seem to end on the other side of the debate.

btw are you sure about Raphael - Astaroth being 6:4, I used to think so too but after playing this matchup alot and also seeing edge-kingusha play I start to doubt and bring it closer to 5:5, since raph can really outspace astaroth and his reverse mixup (4B, ss 22B ) is really damaging. And its not like Asta can do much about raphael stance.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

ShenYuan said:
Egg: Cervantes vs X is ARGUABLY even. but im still putting it in X's favour because X can contain cervy well... with box stepping at advantage, to bait for free step Bs to his weak side, and 66K.... and teleport to bait active defense is not so good because she has 44B... X's movement at step B range shuts down many of his evasive options when X is at advantage. The only wildcard there is iTP...
Click to expand...

What if they are doing FC A+BBBBBBBB alot it catches X's step B and 44B(cause she jumps forward into it) and it pushes her on block to a range were she cant do much and shes at -13. It also catches 1B+K so you'd probably have to start useing quicker moves at disadvantage to stop him from useing this whenever he hits you or guards somthing which iTP and his good CH game would probably work well on, what do you think.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

babalook u keep trying to find ways to make that move good, it isn't... The second you duck, a good X would not likely do any step B, no 44B, and especially no 1B+K (in fear of wsA). in most situations if you want to use that move to beat X's step B tho, if she does step B it would just launch you out of it before it comes out, cause it'll come out faster, while ur still ducking.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Sword_lord: 1K/236236 B is viable. Its just slighlty tricky in execution... maybe... you just gotta practice. ITs really hard to see 1K/236236 ( realyl fast) B on reaction. and for some reason 236236B is hard to step... probably due to the delay induced by crouching. Even if you don't like 236236B she still has 33K 236236B... which is really good as well. And really, at high level poking, BB 1K at BB tip distance, with solid baiting and punishing skills, is enough to win... especially when you have the lead.

Belial: Hmmm I am actually of the opinion that Raph is a pretty good character. But again I have a weird way of looking at him. So might be wrong so ill like to put it up to debate. since this is matchup thread i wont go too deep into this here. I think 44AB setups give mitsu a lot of problems... thanks to his slow speed.

babalook: Good point. From testing, 1B+K interrupts wsA+B when she is at small disadvantage. WSA+B more consistently beats 1B+K when she is at big disadvantage. It is probelmatic for X as she is driven to 8wr/AAB/2A/, as you have implied. But in doing so, she is open to iTP B+K or other CH options... which ain't pretty. I actually fully agree with you about how good this tactic is..... I really thought that X vs cervy was not good for cervy till I went to Cannes... where i learnt that his offense is really crazy... its really edging me to consider the matchup even. Now that i look at it, cervy wins in the damage department, but he lacks in safety, and the ability to keep out safely. X lacks in the damage game, but can probably hit cervy more than he can hit her... and she can play keep out well. Both characters can contain each other with pokes very nicely. mmm ill think about it a bit more. Thanks.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

I can't wrap my head around the idea of 1K/236236B being a mixup. she spins around, then people block low for the 1K, but she edges forward for the deathfist, their startup doesn't look similar; and some folks will eat 1K all day and could care less, understandably. If you say that works tho, I have to believe it works on some decent players, that's interesting...not something I would do, but interesting.
edit: ok, I think I might have figured out what you mean. If Sophie pauses, someone might anticipate 1K if they're in range of it so they might backstep right before you do it, but they would get caught by 236236B if they backstep. it makes sense to me if u put it that way, is that what ya meant? I know this doesn't have anything to do with matchups but...
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Shen Yuan:
I think 44AB setups give mitsu a lot of problems... thanks to his slow speed.
Click to expand...
See what I wrote above about mitsu vs prep - 66BB beats everything, 6B+K beats prep A and empty moves, damage wise mitsu is favored. And no Raph is not good, I used to think he is, for a long time. But as I struggled I learned that he just doesnt have what it takes to compete in upper tier. Also he has that special something I call "Low tier bonus" when your moves wiff w/o reason, your throws get stepped et cetera.
Though the main reason I dislike Raph is that this character is totally unimpressive in every respect, no wallgame, pretty poor RO (basically throws with opponent aligned back-right axis to RO), no techtraps, poor wakeup options, poor post-GI. Raph stances are totally not spammable, so he is left with a very limited set of moves and repetetive patterns that become worseless once your opponent is aware of it. There is hardly a way to make Raphael "look good". I tried, Kura tried but to no awail. I wish I could just see one video of Raphael that would inspire me to go back to him. And I mained him when the game was out - here's two vids from that time
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

sWoRD_LoRD said:
babalook u keep trying to find ways to make that move good, it isn't... The second you duck, a good X would not likely do any step B, no 44B, and especially no 1B+K (in fear of wsA). in most situations if you want to use that move to beat X's step B tho, if she does step B it would just launch you out of it before it comes out, cause it'll come out faster, while ur still ducking.
Click to expand...


Against a good Cervantes you aren't really going to see the FC animation...


Also:

-66(?) damage into good oki
-heals SG on block
-catches step
-deals with "setups" like X 44B
-good delayed post-GI


This move does everything.

Guard break got your number. -Babalook
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

if ya do fcA+B,B... you've got to expect for it to be blocked cause you have to stop and duck (even if only ducking for an instant) so it's really not a mixup. I don't think it catches step, maybe to one side (his right I guess), but that doesn't matter cause wsA covers that. X's 44B is unsafe, blocking or stepping deals with her setups. His grabs are a mixup, do good damage, heals SG on block (or not?), catch step, and are good post-GI. If ya want a good mid that pushes back, u got 3A+B, an actual mixup move. If a Cervy player does fcA+B,B u kinda wanna thank him for taking you out of the unadvantageous situation you were in and putting u in a easier one.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

sWoRD_LoRD said:
babalook u keep trying to find ways to make that move good, it isn't... The second you duck, a good X would not likely do any step B, no 44B, and especially no 1B+K (in fear of wsA). in most situations if you want to use that move to beat X's step B tho, if she does step B it would just launch you out of it before it comes out, cause it'll come out faster, while ur still ducking.
Click to expand...

keep up the theory fighter
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====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
sWoRD_LoRD said:
if ya do fcA+B,B... you've got to expect for it to be blocked cause you have to stop and duck (even if only ducking for an instant) so it's really not a mixup. I don't think it catches step, maybe to one side (his right I guess), but that doesn't matter cause wsA covers that. X's 44B is unsafe, blocking or stepping deals with her setups. His grabs are a mixup, do good damage, heals SG on block (or not?), catch step, and are good post-GI. If ya want a good mid that pushes back, u got 3A+B, an actual mixup move. If a Cervy player does fcA+B,B u kinda wanna thank him for taking you out of the unadvantageous situation you were in and putting u in a easier one.
Click to expand...

how does this put the opponent in advantage if the cervy dashes right after on block then does a moves some of the advantage is still there and its not really a mixup, move thatd be 3B, it just keeps them in check and is near flawless unless your opponent reacts to twitchducks and punishes. Also go to training and see if you can react to 1K FC A+BBBBBB after these: WR A 3A+B 66 mixup, FC A+BBBBB 66 mixup.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Nofacekill3r said:
-catches step
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if you're implying to X in particular or characters in general but against characters with really good step I think it can be stepped.

I'm pretty sure I've tried on Amy and Vader the good steppers.

Perhaps there's a situation?
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

I didn't say it put opponent at advantage, I said it puts them in an easier situation, cause if you have time enough to run up and do fc3B,BBBB it usually shows the opponent had yielded defensive already and was prolly waiting for you to attack. after it's blocked and you run up, opponent might not yield the next time you try something. but whatever, to each their own style of play. I never said it was terrible or anything, just kinda pointless when not at a wall.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

sWoRD_LoRD said:
I didn't say it put opponent at advantage, I said it puts them in an easier situation, cause if you have time enough to run up and do fc3B,BBBB it usually shows the opponent had yielded defensive already and was prolly waiting for you to attack. after it's blocked and you run up, opponent might not yield the next time you try something. but whatever, to each their own style of play. I never said it was terrible or anything, just kinda pointless when not at a wall.
Click to expand...

At a wall it's actually not all that much better, you only get aB. Without the wall if you do a really tiny dash(almost unseeable) 1K and 3B/66K all will reach and come out at a faster speed than there standard speed, so that kinda puts them in a shitty position you can grab too depending on how far it pushed back. And if they try to due something about you dashing into it, that can normally be countered by one of his many tools for high reward. Oh and to franman some characters can 8wayrun it to a certain side(step is possible but more of a luck thing) and it has to be at point blank or tip.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Did babalook...just make a post...with actual punctuation? Is that capitalization I see in there? I'm shocked yet proud of you at the same time baba!

PS. You used the wrong spelling of do in the sentence "And if they try to due something..."
 
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