Official Discussion for SC4 Tier List And Character Guides

Wow I was gonna say "Duck and cover" after my last post, wish I had now.

Let's be sure we're all talking about the same thing.

Tier lists are done based on matchups.

Matchups are based on the best character and anti-character knowedge available to date, based on the two characters in question. It is presumed that the players know the matchup inside out, that they will only make reasonable mistakes, and that they will attack, pressure, punish and mix up accordingly.

A 8-2 matchup means that, on the balance of probabilities, if these two equally-skilled players play 10 matches, Player One will win 8 and Player Two will win 2. In other words, if Sophie-Siegfried is 8-2, Sophie will win 80% of the time.

This is not and cannot be based on the actual skill and style of any one player. It is based on two theoretical players (not perfect players) who will do the right things (e.g. best possible punish) most of the time and will choose the most favourable option where there is no straightforward option (e.g. using strongest mixup options where available).

The more time taken over these considerations,and the more accurate the knowledge is, the better and more useful the matchup chart will be. It could be taken to mathematical levels of precision using functions of speed, damage, range and probability if the players had the time and inclination (e.g. Belial at one time).

You only have to take a glance at soulcalibur.fr to see that the French players have put in a lot of thought, time and effort to devise their matchup chart. Their opinions on the matter have also evolved over a long debate since SCIV arrived. It includes input from the likes of Ring and Belial. This does not make the French chart right, but it does give it a lot of credence, and a hell of a lot more credence than a paragraph stating a single player's feelings on the matter.

Now if anyone can demonstrate that another matchup chart has had this level of input and development from the players who understand the game the best, that would be worth considering when deciding which matchup chart to follow, and who's opinion might be more valuable. For now as far as I can tell, this French chart is the most reliable and resourceful.

This is a far cry from determining whether Ramon or DaGOTTh or Dina has the best Sophie in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong but I only know of two players who have travelled consistently to play this game against as many top players as possible, and they are Malek and Thugish. So if anyone's going to claim they know who "The Best" is with any character, it would be useful to ask them.

Finally, a matchup chart is only relevant to the competitive level of the players who made it. Whether Soph-Sieg or Algol-Talim or whoever is 8-2 or anything else is only a useful determining factor in top level tournament play. If your skill level is insufficient to shut down option 1 or apply oki option 2, then it really doesn't matter what the chart says. You'll need to make a separate chart for lower level play.

Phew. So in conclusion

--French chart is most researched and hence best unless someone shows that similar thought has gone into another.

--Best [Character] player in the world is only determinable by regular international-level tournaments, otherwise only travelled players should really comment.
 
KingAce said:
For some of that info on the French list, I would love to see the physical proof. Some are just way to extreme even if just theoretical. Theoretically setsuka has really good tools, now where's the performance to back it up. And their opinion on Zas, as a Zas player seems completely focused around Omega...no., the character isn't that good.

It's all relative anyway.
Click to expand...

Yes and no.
You ask for performance to proove theory, but then said that Omega's performance do not represent Zasalamel.
By the way, what do you think about Zas's match up.

Ramon is one of the best in the world for sure. I don't know now more however.
Once you stop playing with people you know, sometimes your results will be completely different.
But I like you Ramon, so to me, you are the best !

Setsuka is the most damaging character in the cast. Only Sophi TAS B, Voldo CH combo's and Asta's Grab can compete with her damage.
B+K, 214B+G throw, 1B:B are all powerfull tools that hurt in neutral hit. When it comes to CH... 6K, 2363B, 11A, 4A, ...
Her damage are nonsense.

It's difficult to argue about Sophi-Sieg 8-2 match up cause many players still disagree with it. Like me.
How ever, noone was able to answer to theory of the match up. Lots of arguments where put on the forum and not a single one is wrong or denied. So it is what it is, even if it's still hard to believe when you don't play Sieg.
Short story: Risk/reward negatif on all mid (punishable) except one 4K. 236236 is nonsense here cause it nullify Siegfried ability to play at mid range. Sieg cannot move, he's one of the worst character to move on the map. There is no way he can evade Sophi's move. Sophi's 4B and 1K allow her to pressure Sieg at will without any big risk. Sophi's BB kills both Sieg's 22B and 88B. And of course throws are punished with FC1B8BAK which does a lot more damage than the throws.
Zas vs Sophi looks a lot like this in my opinion by the way...
Taki Sophi is another story. Short story: PO step kill most sophi's tool. Basically the match up consist with Taki to attack and step (or 22A) in order to avoid something or to pressure again. Sophi has to guess less time than Taki to deals many damage, but she is the one under pressure the whole match. TAS B is useless here cause Sophi can't stop Taki to rush and pressure, so iWS1B8BAK will be her best move is the match up. Sophi's anti step cannot compete with Taki's 22A or are too slow to be effective.
 
Omega is one player. And I don't know how many setsuka players there in France. I have only seen one, Maxou.

If you play Zas in all the match-ups one thing is blatantly certain. It's not his tools that are going to win you important matches, but your defense. Sidestep, GIs and decision making. Omega has some of the best reactions out there. He picked up the character because it compliments his work ethic while looking cool.
You have Raph vs Zas 5:5. It's 6:4 If not worse.
You have Kilik vs Zas 6:4. It's 7:3
You have Asta vs Zas 5:5. It's 6:4.

And so on and so forth...to me it's clear you haven't played the character.
And whatever theories the FR players might have presented to make these claims I would love to read them. I am open minded on this

As far as setsuka goes, everyone agrees she's good. In France she's the strongest legal character in the game...however as extensive as your explanations might be, the whole world has no physical evidence for such an outstanding tier placement. To prove your theories you have to back them up with some kind of evidence right?
 
KingAce said:
Omega is one player. And I don't know how many setsuka players there in France. I have only seen one, Maxou.

If you play Zas in all the match-ups one thing is blatantly certain. It's not his tools that are going to win you important matches, but your defense. Sidestep, GIs and decision making. Omega has some of the best reactions out there. He picked up the character because it compliments his work ethic while looking cool.
You have Raph vs Zas 5:5. It's 6:4 If not worse.
You have Kilik vs Zas 6:4. It's 7:3
You have Asta vs Zas 5:5. It's 6:4.

And so on and so forth...to me it's clear you haven't played the character.
And whatever theories the FR players might have presented to make these claims I would love to read them. I am open minded on this

As far as setsuka goes, everyone agrees she's good. In France she's the strongest legal character in the game...however as extensive as your explanations might be, the whole world has no physical evidence for such an outstanding tier placement. To prove your theories you have to back them up with some kind of evidence right?
Click to expand...

Let's talk about me who haven't played Zas next week.
I agree with Kilik and Asta. Not Raph. Actually I asked you cause I wanna change most of his current match-up.
Zas, Xiang and Taki are probably the last characters that may have match-up very inaccurate in my opinion.

So, to proove your point, then many players with the same character have to won to proove that the character is strong ?
Ring, Scud, Whoaaaz, NoFaceKiller, Linkrc and me we all play Ivy and won several competitions.
Thuggish and DK are the top player with Amy. Furzy, Lolo and Hajime play Yoshi. They all placed high or won several comp.
RTD, Ceirnian and Dina are the Hilde players.
1. Ivy
2. Hilde
3. Yoshi
4. Amy
Is this correct ? I don't think so...
+
Hilde has not won that many comp compare to her power. Still, she is the god tier of the game.

Evidence ?
There it is: http://www.8wayrun.com/wiki/setsuka-frame-data-sc4/
B+K is an i23 mid than does 86 damage on neutral hit. It is only -14 on block an leave opponent FC and critical in 10.
This is evidence. The game is like this. There is no way to change it, as soon as Setsuka hits you with this move, you'll loose 86 damage.
 
I just wanna put this out there for the sake of food for thought. It has always been weird to me that opinions of respected players clash concerning match up charts, while no one else seems to point it out. Let me elaborate:

I am considered a good player. I know someone else who is considered a good player. We both believe that a matchup chart sends the wrong message to the community. We do agree, however, that having at least a general tier list is important so as to roughly classify which characters can be grouped in S, A, B, C, D, class. Beyond that, though, I would say it is downright dangerous to people's perceptions to say how each character fares exactly against another character. The problem is that, yeah, we say it's just theory, but then we totally ignore how influential this theory is, and then we let it become a fact subconsciously, and then end up talking about it as if it were the truth while often unintentionally offending good players that truly challenge the match up chart from personal experience, and even worse, it stays permanently unresolved just because the players are unable to prove it for varying reasons. So then to disregard their conclusion is too disrespectful and unhealthy for the community IMO.

I've said this before, nothing new to some of you, but never know who might read it now.
 
Vincent said:
I just wanna put this out there for the sake of food for thought. It has always been weird to me that opinions of respected players clash concerning match up charts, while no one else seems to point it out. Let me elaborate:

I am considered a good player. I know someone else who is considered a good player. We both believe that a matchup chart sends the wrong message to the community. We do agree, however, that having at least a general tier list is important so as to roughly classify which characters can be grouped in S, A, B, C, D, class. Beyond that, though, I would say it is downright dangerous to people's perceptions to say how each character fares exactly against another character. The problem is that, yeah, we say it's just theory, but then we totally ignore how influential this theory is, and then we let it become a fact subconsciously, and then end up talking about it as if it were the truth while often unintentionally offending good players that truly challenge the match up chart from personal experience, and even worse, it stays permanently unresolved just because the players are unable to prove it for varying reasons. So then to disregard their conclusion is too disrespectful and unhealthy for the community IMO.

I've said this before, nothing new to some of you, but never know who might read it now.
Click to expand...

this is the truth. i played slayer_x64 many many times and dominated with sophitia, and then talked to him about it for a while. he completely restructured his style of play into a safe siggy and guess what? he does extremely well!

calling a matchup bullshit is bullshit. just because you have to rethink things and get creative does not mean it will never work.
 
Malek it's not really about me being right and you being wrong. I am just trying to understand where your all coming from. I happened to be very opinionated and the only thing I trust is my own analysis of the game, but I don't mean any disrespect.
If the argument that is presented to me is rational and logical to me I see no reason to ever challenge it. People here are mistaken in thinking that winning tournaments equates to a full grasp of the game...this is almost never the case.

So as a nobody I don't hesitate to challenge anyone's opinion.
 
On setsuka. I can't prove the French chart wrong because I don't play the character. However, I also can't see the proof to confirm her as the best legal char in the game.
What you suggest is that her frame data speaks for it self. I take issue with this.

I feel for a character to be feared it has to dominate or place well in tournaments, as well as in casuals. On all levels of competition it has to have some kind of strong presence. I have played low tier characters in all of SC4's lifespan, I have never feared setsuka. Despite Chang's FD, Maxou, Nando, CheeseOfTheDay, all these great setsuka players never once made me fear her. I've always felt they're were more demons out there.

And from my experience and what I have seen, from Omega vs Nando for example is patience. As long as you turtle, space and step correct, she will give you opportunities to punish her. And as aggressive as she is, if you ignore 1AAA, the only really relevant low she has, she has no other way of creating mixups to pressure you.

And I feel that I can look past her damage, as apposed to characters like Sophie, Amy and IVY, where I feel I am constantly falling behind each time I get hit...whether I turtle or not.
 
I'm just now starting to understand Sets and I say she's definitely top 4. Would elaborate but I'm typing from my phone. The only thing is, unlike some of the other top characters, a Sets player can't really go in and do their thing; she requires way more reading than, say, Ivy or Amy (who can space and mixup, respectively, despite what character your opponent is playing) but he payoff for reading right is often huge and much better than the risk.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom