Official Discussion for SC4 Tier List And Character Guides
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Something-Unique
[10] Knight
S-U Tier List (IMO): 11/19/2009
I used a change in method similiar to Tekken as I feel its more acurate! Just the opinion of someone who can use a number of characters and is a tier whore besides Kilik as he is my natural main (lol) in combination with a powerful standing in the tournament scene. So for those who factor those things in combination with caring about tier lists this is my new updated list.
SS. Hilde-Kilik-Algol (In order)
S. Voldo-Cervantes-Setsuka (In order)
A. Ivy, Cassandra, Sophitia, Mitsurugi, Yoshimitsu, Amy, Astaroth (No order)
B. Taki, Nightmare, Siegfried, Xianghua, Darth Vader, The Apprentice, Lizardman, Zasalamel (No order)
C. Tira, Yun-Seong, Maxi, Seong Mi-na, Talim, Rock, Raphael (No order)
D. Yoda (In order)
Amy is A for me (shocking) because I feel when she is understood and people don't choke her weaknesses become obvious.
I used a change in method similiar to Tekken as I feel its more acurate! Just the opinion of someone who can use a number of characters and is a tier whore besides Kilik as he is my natural main (lol) in combination with a powerful standing in the tournament scene. So for those who factor those things in combination with caring about tier lists this is my new updated list.
SS. Hilde-Kilik-Algol (In order)
S. Voldo-Cervantes-Setsuka (In order)
A. Ivy, Cassandra, Sophitia, Mitsurugi, Yoshimitsu, Amy, Astaroth (No order)
B. Taki, Nightmare, Siegfried, Xianghua, Darth Vader, The Apprentice, Lizardman, Zasalamel (No order)
C. Tira, Yun-Seong, Maxi, Seong Mi-na, Talim, Rock, Raphael (No order)
D. Yoda (In order)
Amy is A for me (shocking) because I feel when she is understood and people don't choke her weaknesses become obvious.
page
[11] Champion
There's no fucking way that Mina is better than Rock, by any metric. And Vader should be a little higher.
FlyPuPpY09
[08] Mercenary
Now the only reason why Ivys not top tier anymore like the SC2 days is cause she lost her sexy Japanese voice. That IS the only reason. Bring back Yumi Toma!!
S-U wins on this one for sure. The stance limitation is what plays a major role in it. Any good player playing against a PO happy Taki either steps back or instinctly 2G. now if your one of those guys who 2G's as soon as you see possession, all your doing is just waiting too see the animation for PO B. I think by now, everyone has the animation engraved in their mind and it just becomes instinct to just let go of 2 at the first sign of PO B to block it.
With it having the stance limitation. it's like you're just waiting for the PO B to come out so you can let go of 2. Cause A and K will whiff otherwise.
However i am a Taki player as well as Ivy and Hilde. Ivy is my main but all my friends always complain about Taki the most. i mean i'm not gonna argue over her mid-tier ranking, but she seems so solid tho. using PO wisely and PO Rush~1BA_4A+B and so many others and PO 2_8 can just mix it up completely. I feel like with Taki, it's all about a mind game playing against her. I think her PO is lethal when it's not overused.
But is their any other reason other than her PO being unsafe?
S-U wins on this one for sure. The stance limitation is what plays a major role in it. Any good player playing against a PO happy Taki either steps back or instinctly 2G. now if your one of those guys who 2G's as soon as you see possession, all your doing is just waiting too see the animation for PO B. I think by now, everyone has the animation engraved in their mind and it just becomes instinct to just let go of 2 at the first sign of PO B to block it.
With it having the stance limitation. it's like you're just waiting for the PO B to come out so you can let go of 2. Cause A and K will whiff otherwise.
However i am a Taki player as well as Ivy and Hilde. Ivy is my main but all my friends always complain about Taki the most. i mean i'm not gonna argue over her mid-tier ranking, but she seems so solid tho. using PO wisely and PO Rush~1BA_4A+B and so many others and PO 2_8 can just mix it up completely. I feel like with Taki, it's all about a mind game playing against her. I think her PO is lethal when it's not overused.
But is their any other reason other than her PO being unsafe?
MarkDarc
[08] Mercenary
Sorry if this interrupts the flow of things, but when it comes to these tiers, are you saying that top tier fighters will easily beat lower tier fighters? Or is it that top tier fighters are just better all around?
Slavezer0s
[09] Warrior
top tier fighters are just better all round characters imo. although the tier list is in the situation that said character is being used at the highest lvl of play...even low tier characters can win. they just "have to work harder"...really it all comes down to the player. even a GOD tier character sucks in the hands of a scrub.
MarkDarc
[08] Mercenary
Oh I see now. Cuz I was really confuzzled by the fact that Kilik is a top tier fighter...but I hardly lose to him when I'm using Maxi lol. Thanks for the help, much appreciated =)
Nukleurfire
[09] Warrior
It doesn't even necessarily mean that they are all around better. It's just that they -generally- have a better time of things. For example Algol is slightly higher on the tier list than Mina or Raph, yet in that matchup advantage is to the Mina or Raph player.
Of course all tiers and match ups are subjective opinions and for the most part are quite close. There are a couple really bad matchups in the game but for the most part character choice doesn't give you an insane advantage.
(in b4 wut bout hilduhbeast)
Of course all tiers and match ups are subjective opinions and for the most part are quite close. There are a couple really bad matchups in the game but for the most part character choice doesn't give you an insane advantage.
(in b4 wut bout hilduhbeast)
Nofacekill3r
[11] Champion
No offense but I think this has to do with you playing Kilik...he has the tools to deal with everything Amy can throw at him.
Something-Unique
[10] Knight
Just out of curiosity can u name the tools that Kilik has to deal with her that the other characters in the S and SS tier don't have besides Algol who she can make look stupid and to a lesser extent beat out Cervantes since its easy to punish him with Amy's 6BB on all his good stuff.
I'm curious because things like 4A+B that I use with Kilik post step is i27-i28 frames and I can make that slow ass move work.
I was using Kilik on a non-patched SC4 in the hotel at NEC10 later that day with no asura and still had the edge on Thugish even though I had no asura not even realizing it was because of the patch until when we had to leave (I thought my timing was just off).
The reality is people just choke vs. her and that includes me to some extent even to this day.
Nofacekill3r
[11] Champion
Well your original statement generalized who you were talking about. You said "people," not "people who play S/SS tier characters."
Of course other top tier characters will also have the tools to deal with her, but that doesn't mean that she herself isn't top tier.
Of course other top tier characters will also have the tools to deal with her, but that doesn't mean that she herself isn't top tier.
page
[11] Champion
Yeah, it's true that Amy carries a lot of expectations into each fight. Either you choke because it's Amy, or you know exactly what to expect because it's Amy. She has dangerous moves, but they're really predictable. Except that even with how predictable they are they're still hard to defend against consistently. Seems like A is a good place for her.
MONEYMUFFINS
[13] Hero
Amy is pretty well-rounded but 33B makes her especially good. Either it needs to be unsafe on block or the RO ability needs to be limited, but without these changes then 33B makes her too strong. She's definitely S-tier.
sWoRD_LoRD
[09] Warrior
she lacks solid safe mids that do any damage (A6 is nice but it leaves her standing there pretty long and she can't whore it against some characters) and she has no lows.
Anyway, Belial's list seems more accurate to me. What does Voldo have besides CF pressure? U put him that high for CF alone?, cause his other shit is good but nothin amazing. Cervantes is too high, he isn't hard to play against. Raph is better than Zas and Siegfried. People are under false ideas that they can just step Raph all day, but that isn't so if he's played right. You have to be a turtle to use him, and attack infrequently and unpredictably. You might again be talkin about CF game as a reason for having Sieg so high.
The stuff you say about Amy is technically sound, and you apparently put it into practice against Thugish effectively, so I'll let you have that one, even though she still feels pretty damn broke and pretty damn gay to me.
Something-Unique
[10] Knight
Sword Lord:
People sleep on Cervantes.
These tools are what make Cervantes that high for me...
bK, 1K, 1B, 3A+B, aB, 2A+B, 3B, FC 2A+B (GB), iGDR, iTP, BT B+K
1. Excellent pressure game.
2. His unsafeness is a false perception seeing how 3B and 2A+B are -14-Frames. There are like three characters that can do anything significant against -14 in the game Sisters and Setsuka. Not to mention that at a respectable distance both are safe. Last but not least his reward is excellent.
3. iTP is godlike outside of its weird properties that has u ending up teleporting in the wrong direction sometimes. If u use this correct into BT B+K it leads to 89-94 Damage and I believe 104 (Character specific).
4. He has the option of using BT B+K as a result of canceling out some of his moves from regular standing for the same ridiculous damage as above.
5. 2A+B is a full tracking -14-Frame mid that is safe in itself against damn near the entire cast and when used with range is completely safe. Leads to 63+ on CH and because of its general safety can be spammed.
6. iGDR needs no explanation but as a whiff punisher its godlike and if u leave out the last hit u can get 53-Damage +oki (strong oki I might add)
7. His FC 323B+G does 70 and leads into strong oki.
8. 3A+B is another full tracking completely safe mid
9. aB 35-Damage i13-Frames.
10. FC 2A+BBBBBBBB (GB) +13-Frames high damage; trains not to duck among his other mids, strong oki, and guarantees aB at the wall.
11. 1K is an excellent low with +1 to boot and tracks.
12. 1B steps moves for good poke damage and is only -13-Frames with good range making it completely safe mind u.
13. bK is golden
14. 3B -14-Frames leads to 63-68 damage. 85-Damage character specific is an option as well. -14-Frames means spammable to some extent
Voldo:
I think he is an overrated piece of shit but either way u look at it his tools is better than everyone in the game besides the top.
Raphael:
Is ass and stepping his is not bullshit. Its full proof. I would love to see someone prove me different.
People sleep on Cervantes.
These tools are what make Cervantes that high for me...
bK, 1K, 1B, 3A+B, aB, 2A+B, 3B, FC 2A+B (GB), iGDR, iTP, BT B+K
1. Excellent pressure game.
2. His unsafeness is a false perception seeing how 3B and 2A+B are -14-Frames. There are like three characters that can do anything significant against -14 in the game Sisters and Setsuka. Not to mention that at a respectable distance both are safe. Last but not least his reward is excellent.
3. iTP is godlike outside of its weird properties that has u ending up teleporting in the wrong direction sometimes. If u use this correct into BT B+K it leads to 89-94 Damage and I believe 104 (Character specific).
4. He has the option of using BT B+K as a result of canceling out some of his moves from regular standing for the same ridiculous damage as above.
5. 2A+B is a full tracking -14-Frame mid that is safe in itself against damn near the entire cast and when used with range is completely safe. Leads to 63+ on CH and because of its general safety can be spammed.
6. iGDR needs no explanation but as a whiff punisher its godlike and if u leave out the last hit u can get 53-Damage +oki (strong oki I might add)
7. His FC 323B+G does 70 and leads into strong oki.
8. 3A+B is another full tracking completely safe mid
9. aB 35-Damage i13-Frames.
10. FC 2A+BBBBBBBB (GB) +13-Frames high damage; trains not to duck among his other mids, strong oki, and guarantees aB at the wall.
11. 1K is an excellent low with +1 to boot and tracks.
12. 1B steps moves for good poke damage and is only -13-Frames with good range making it completely safe mind u.
13. bK is golden
14. 3B -14-Frames leads to 63-68 damage. 85-Damage character specific is an option as well. -14-Frames means spammable to some extent
Voldo:
I think he is an overrated piece of shit but either way u look at it his tools is better than everyone in the game besides the top.
Raphael:
Is ass and stepping his is not bullshit. Its full proof. I would love to see someone prove me different.
mikosu
Goderator of pink hearts
Not gonna hop in on the debate but I will say:
Amy: You have no choice but to respect her game. Her frames are the best and she forces you to make a choice. Step is her only real weakness. Her low damage isn't too significant since it fits with how she is. She'll hit you at some point unless you guess right the entire match. And that's the thing: you HAVE to guess. Stepping her definitely helps but doesn't make her unusable.
Voldo: Damage, SG damage, evasion, and hard-to-read mixups all without trying. Sure he's steppable in FT but his stuff lands anyway. Which is why....
Raphael: is really underrated. He has the biggest weakness to step in the game but he is poking king and has annoying range. Least he has side-specific anti-step to alleviate it somewhat.
GS Tira i14 6A MSH A son. 45 dmg. What you know 'bout dat? Only limitation is that it starts high.
Amy: You have no choice but to respect her game. Her frames are the best and she forces you to make a choice. Step is her only real weakness. Her low damage isn't too significant since it fits with how she is. She'll hit you at some point unless you guess right the entire match. And that's the thing: you HAVE to guess. Stepping her definitely helps but doesn't make her unusable.
Voldo: Damage, SG damage, evasion, and hard-to-read mixups all without trying. Sure he's steppable in FT but his stuff lands anyway. Which is why....
Raphael: is really underrated. He has the biggest weakness to step in the game but he is poking king and has annoying range. Least he has side-specific anti-step to alleviate it somewhat.
GS Tira i14 6A MSH A son. 45 dmg. What you know 'bout dat? Only limitation is that it starts high.
thugish_pond
[10] Knight
Your forgetting even though you didn't have asura, I thought you did. If I knew that I wouldn't have been worried about it and wouldve just had to watch out when you step. And don't forget in the end after we realized it we broke even. Even though you had like 9 ring outs, cheap bastard lol.
sWoRD_LoRD
[09] Warrior
Raphael:
excellent step
solid punishment with 6BB, 3B, BB
very nice range
solid lows with 1B, 1A, 1K, fc1A (or is it fc3A, I forget sometimes, I use too many characters), and decent range on 2K
solid mids with 3B, B, BB, 33KB (situational), 66A+B, 11/44K, 3K
solid evasion with 4A, B+K, 44B, and some of his prep evasion has its uses
solid tech crouch and tech jump with 4B, 11K, 6K
solid ring out mixup with his A and B grabs
solid lockdown with 2A and B
solid anti everything with 2A, also solid recovery off his 2A
anti-step with 3A and 2A
super solid options from crouch with wsB, wsA, 4B, grab, 44K, 44B, fc1A (or fc3A), 2K, etc.
overall, a solid defensive character with nice simple BB/grab mixup and pretty good lockdown.
docvizzo
[14] Master
iTP is only good against some characters, against Ivy, asta, Sieg, Nightmare, zas and co its completely unusable plus i dont know where you get the 90 damage from. ch 3B after iTP is EXTREMELY unreliable, whiffs most of the time if you dont have the right angle. Even it hits you will not get 90 Damage in any case afaik. The best solution after it is still 2A+B since its reliable, so its 66 Damage or something. i'll test later.
2A+B is definetely not full tracking. It has a weak side, it can be stepped. its very negative on NH, but of course still his best move.
I really dont think you have played Cervantes enough to put him that high, iTP for example does not work at all how you described it. Even if the JF BT B+Ks you have too be vey careful, for example in 8A+B there are quite few frames in which you can be grabbed out for a Backthrow. and bith 8A+B:B+K and FC A+BBB are very risky, if you whiff the JFS you always end up for a launcher punishment.
bK is 0 on Block, its a mindgame for both players, not something tat puts you in extreme advantage. Yoshi for example can escape so much by just doing 8K...Ivy can backstep the 1K and Throws and stil block all the mids etc...
1B really does not evade too much, i have to admit i dont use it too much since i had not too much good experience with it. A slow moce that is 0 on Hit and does not evade most of the moves doesnt make him Top Tier imo.
Btw we have the same discussion in the Cervy forum, feel free to join!!
Something-Unique
[10] Knight
Mikosu:
Didn't know Tira could punish like that. Interesting. Do u lose health; is it random? Even so it still is stance restricted.
Thugish:
Don't forget about ur critical finish bullshit (lol one 66A+b on a red bar = CF) and the damage and oki game u received as a result of me missing Asura thinking that it would work. Every match wasn't a ringout though and its part of the game. Kilik, Nightmare, Hilde, Vader, etc. Also u got a couple urself. Your the king of cheapness lol; that's fact.
Sword_Lord:
Imo all that shit is solid but just that; solid, not great, not excellent, not superb, doesn't stand out, and 2A is a universal good tool among many. To be honest all that shit would land him in B but then comes the awesome major issue he has; the worst tracking in the entire game brings him down a notch.
Docvizzo:
On the issue of iTP I take ur word for it because I did notice back when I had a PS3 to practice him for that week that it has issues with properties (going in the wrong direction etc.) but on the other hand when it worked. iTP, into the non instant BT B+K, 3B, 8A+K, iGDR, 28B worked for me without needing to do the instant BT B+K (I always manage to make slow shit work) which does less and that's the damage I am referring to. The damage falls in line with the same weird properties that 3B has when iGDR is timed differently.
2A+B is designed as a full tracking move. I notice some people tend to say tracking moves are not fully trackable because in some rare cases it can be stepped like Hilde's C3A which is another full tracking move that in some rare cases can be stepped. It doesn't take away the fact that 9 times out of 10 it will catch u stepping because its designed that way. People confuse that one time glitchy soul cal bullshit with a non steppable move being stepped as the move being able to be stepped. Would u attempt to step Hilde's C3A because it has that minor possibility?
In regards to ur third paragraph there is always a margin of error but that applies to a number of characters and doesn't factor in to tiers. Tiers are based on what u can achieve and if its practical. Looking at the way u get standing 8A+B:B+K off out of the amount of times u use it is testament to that.
I agree on bK but it still is a better than average tool.
I find 1B is not the be all end all but is excellent at what it does. Nice semi spammable poke that steps moves and is safe.
If u and Hates were combined into one person lol. I think the result would be a Cervantes that would be akin to what Me and Wingzero are to Kilik (whom by the way was thought to be shitty character for a long time), RTD and Ceirnian is to Hilde, Thugish is to Amy, etc. When I look at ur Cervantes u show all the crazy flashy but still heavy on substance things Cervantes can do, and when I look at Hates I see precision, patience, stronger mind games, and excellent execution but his Cervantes is to basic that it looks like nothing is being done special to that character or better said exploiting Cervantes for all the good shit he has. Instead it just looks like he is a solid competitor who can be strong with any character. IMHO
Didn't know Tira could punish like that. Interesting. Do u lose health; is it random? Even so it still is stance restricted.
Thugish:
Don't forget about ur critical finish bullshit (lol one 66A+b on a red bar = CF) and the damage and oki game u received as a result of me missing Asura thinking that it would work. Every match wasn't a ringout though and its part of the game. Kilik, Nightmare, Hilde, Vader, etc. Also u got a couple urself. Your the king of cheapness lol; that's fact.
Sword_Lord:
Imo all that shit is solid but just that; solid, not great, not excellent, not superb, doesn't stand out, and 2A is a universal good tool among many. To be honest all that shit would land him in B but then comes the awesome major issue he has; the worst tracking in the entire game brings him down a notch.
Docvizzo:
On the issue of iTP I take ur word for it because I did notice back when I had a PS3 to practice him for that week that it has issues with properties (going in the wrong direction etc.) but on the other hand when it worked. iTP, into the non instant BT B+K, 3B, 8A+K, iGDR, 28B worked for me without needing to do the instant BT B+K (I always manage to make slow shit work) which does less and that's the damage I am referring to. The damage falls in line with the same weird properties that 3B has when iGDR is timed differently.
2A+B is designed as a full tracking move. I notice some people tend to say tracking moves are not fully trackable because in some rare cases it can be stepped like Hilde's C3A which is another full tracking move that in some rare cases can be stepped. It doesn't take away the fact that 9 times out of 10 it will catch u stepping because its designed that way. People confuse that one time glitchy soul cal bullshit with a non steppable move being stepped as the move being able to be stepped. Would u attempt to step Hilde's C3A because it has that minor possibility?
In regards to ur third paragraph there is always a margin of error but that applies to a number of characters and doesn't factor in to tiers. Tiers are based on what u can achieve and if its practical. Looking at the way u get standing 8A+B:B+K off out of the amount of times u use it is testament to that.
I agree on bK but it still is a better than average tool.
I find 1B is not the be all end all but is excellent at what it does. Nice semi spammable poke that steps moves and is safe.
If u and Hates were combined into one person lol. I think the result would be a Cervantes that would be akin to what Me and Wingzero are to Kilik (whom by the way was thought to be shitty character for a long time), RTD and Ceirnian is to Hilde, Thugish is to Amy, etc. When I look at ur Cervantes u show all the crazy flashy but still heavy on substance things Cervantes can do, and when I look at Hates I see precision, patience, stronger mind games, and excellent execution but his Cervantes is to basic that it looks like nothing is being done special to that character or better said exploiting Cervantes for all the good shit he has. Instead it just looks like he is a solid competitor who can be strong with any character. IMHO