Official Discussion for SC4 Tier List And Character Guides

I think its like Maxx said. most people agree in general about tiers.
So what you want to do is general explanation of what is each tier.
B/c like people show us it is possible to win with almost any character in this game. nothing except hilde is too overpowered.

So my recent tier list looks like this

God: Hilde

Top: Setsuka, Amy, Kilik, Voldo, Ivy

High: Asta, Mitsu, Sophie, Cassandra, Lizardman, Cervantes, Yoshimitsu, Siegfried

Mid: Nightmare, Raphael, Zasalamel, Xianghua, Tira, Taki

Low: Talim, Seung Mina, Maxi, Yun Seong, Rock

Top tier characters have overpowered spammable tools.
High tier characters can deal a lot of damage regardless of opponent
Mid tier chracters can deal damage but need to set it up
Low tier characters have no damage, they have to rely heavily on character and matchup knowledge and exploit opponent weaknesses.
 
Belial said:
So my recent tier list looks like this

God: Hilde

Top: Setsuka, Amy, Kilik, Voldo, Ivy

High: Asta, Mitsu, Sophie, Cassandra, Lizardman, Cervantes, Yoshimitsu, Siegfried

Mid: Nightmare, Raphael, Zasalamel, Xianghua, Tira, Taki

Low: Talim, Seung Mina, Maxi, Yun Seong, Rock
Click to expand...
Amy's better than Setsuka, Raph I'd say is better than both Sieg and Nightmare, and Xianghua is WAY better than Zas. Also, Cass is a good bit better than Sophie. The other list yall got put algol in like mid tier, I won't even respond to that one.
 
Belial said:
I think its like Maxx said. most people agree in general about tiers.
So what you want to do is general explanation of what is each tier.
B/c like people show us it is possible to win with almost any character in this game. nothing except hilde is too overpowered.

So my recent tier list looks like this

God: Hilde

Top: Setsuka, Amy, Kilik, Voldo, Ivy

High: Asta, Mitsu, Sophie, Cassandra, Lizardman, Cervantes, Yoshimitsu, Siegfried

Mid: Nightmare, Raphael, Zasalamel, Xianghua, Tira, Taki

Low: Talim, Seung Mina, Maxi, Yun Seong, Rock

Top tier characters have overpowered spammable tools.
High tier characters can deal a lot of damage regardless of opponent
Mid tier chracters can deal damage but need to set it up
Low tier characters have no damage, they have to rely heavily on character and matchup knowledge and exploit opponent weaknesses.
Click to expand...

Very accurate list IMO. Although I would put Siegfried and Rock lower and perhaps Xianghua too.
 
u gotta put in WORK to win with Taki if you're playin someone who knows what's up with her. She has a hard time dealing with a fast character, but someone like Nightmare who's ranked higher than her, she can put to rest cause that matchup is probably in her favor (that might not be true either tho, cause I'm not sure how effective Nightmare B+K is against her, it might crush her. maybe A+B also). Everything from possession is unsafe and pretty much trash, but has it's uses. I used to think that she could just do 3KK,roll,mixup, but she can't do that either cause you can step everything she does except if she rolls then does wsA. 3KKK is unsafe, so that's pretty much trash also. She can win matches, but it's difficult. She'll beat Astaroth tho.
 
sWoRD_LoRD said:
Everything from possession is unsafe and pretty much trash, but has it's uses.
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Taki has one move from Possession that's unsafe. Every other move she has from that stance is safe. Possession moves also lead into her best damage -- PO 214 B can take 50% life.
 
Taki entering possession at all is unsafe for the most part, you can beat out her stuff before she does any attack out of it, but also just about every move she has in it is high, so you can also duck when you see possession. PO B is blockable on reaction so you can duck, then see PO B and stand up to block it. PO teleport moves are unsafe cause you can step PO 214B and punish or run under it (Taki can mix you up if you try running under tho), PO214A, I step, then see the A and block it (not sure if that one's unsafe). PO unblockable u can interrupt or backstep, unsafe. PO 8K is the only thing that can keep you from ducking, but it's unsafe on block and doesn't do much damage. Taki has always been my favorite character, but I rarely use her in sc4, for good reason.
 
what are people thinking about where Algol should be placed? A lot of ppl dnt think he's top anymore and are putting him in the upper mid area to mid? I think he's still great and top :D maybe its cause theres not really that many amazing players using him and he isnt exactly winning tournies ppl arnt thinking he's that good?
 
i was actually just thinking about the algol question too and how it would fit into your list, belial ...

what do you think of algol, vader, apprentice ... i'm not gonna ask about yoda becuz i'm assuming ud place him bottom ... if u didn't ud make babies explode
 
Just a quick analysis of this page in particular.

Are we getting back into order or are we sticking with no order rankings in respective tiers. Because some of the tiers on this page look as though they are trying to dip back in order and we all know that gets us no where as the purpose of this thread was to focus on specific tier placement.

OmegaXCN:

I have to agree with Sword_Lord here. Taki simply utilizing possession is virtually unsafe in itself and to be honest it makes her much easier to beat. This comment isn't based on the fact that I utilize Kilik either which most view as her worst nightmare. Though i'm suprised that when people talk about her teleport attacks from PO no one mentions the best and most accurate method to crush it. One back step eliminates the entire mixup and perhaps even more important than that is the fact that both are seeable. The standard B comes before the low B in frames thus making both blockable simply by low guarding later as its a canned mixup. Because u can punish harder from one back step though that should always be the main choice unless u have no where to back step.
 
good point unique, I don't punish the teleport A usually, cause I've never backstepped when she does teleport B and A. Teleport A is safe on block right? Can't remember (never tested cause I knew it was trash immediately, so I didn't care if it was safe on block or not; I think it blockstuns too heavy to punish but can't remember). It's been forever since I've played against her offline.
 
Something-Unique said:
Just a quick analysis of this page in particular.


OmegaXCN:

I have to agree with Sword_Lord here. Taki simply utilizing possession is virtually unsafe in itself and to be honest it makes her much easier to beat. This comment isn't based on the fact that I utilize Kilik either which most view as her worst nightmare. Though i'm suprised that when people talk about her teleport attacks from PO no one mentions the best and most accurate method to crush it. One back step eliminates the entire mixup and perhaps even more important than that is the fact that both are seeable. The standard B comes before the low B in frames thus making both blockable simply by low guarding later as its a canned mixup. Because u can punish harder from one back step though that should always be the main choice unless u have no where to back step.
Click to expand...

Hover is meant to be an anticipatory whiff punish in a situation where the opponent won't have enough time to back step, rather than a mix-up. At least that's how I use it. If they block it either option, it's safe and forces crouch. It's also meant to be used sparingly since, in theory, it is easy to deal with as you say.

As for ducking against everything from PO and reacting only to PO B....in theory, if you are able to react to a 19 frame move from a crouch position while Taki has frame advantage from shifting into stance, then you should be able to react to Mitsu 2KB every time >,>. Even on block, PO B force crouches, and the frame disadvantage is small enough to act as a set-up.

Going back to Taki's stance, I treat it like Belial treats Mitsu stance (which also looks totally unsafe on paper): If you're getting punished from it, you're not using it correctly. There's more to Taki's possession stance than her teleports =P

Granted, my argument won't take Taki away from mid-tier, and I still recognize the stance's flaws: Characters like Kilik and Astaroth have tools that can shut down Possession stance pretty badly, and there are times where limited stance play is the best choice to play through a match. However, I wouldn't go as far as calling the whole Possession stance garbage, since technically she does have an answer to every move in the game from that stance, they're all safe on block, and it can lead to huge damage when used right.

Do I think she's any higher than mid-tier? No.

Do I think she's better than Tira? God, yes.

Still consider Unique's tier list to be the most accurate, even if it does have Zasalamel as not being lower-mid tier =P
 
my tier list is in no particular order just in case.

the more I hear the more shocking it is.
does anybody even rely on Hover as a mixup? seriously.
 
OmegaXCN:

I see the point in ur post OmegaXCN. Though for some reason for me it doesn't matter how her teleports are used they never seem to work on me. Maybe like a 1 out of 10 ratio. To me it is extremely easy to react to and I think you have played me enough to know how I shut it down or was that Maxx.

Overall I find that the defender against possession actually has better options for some reason. I could be wrong on a technical level with this comment but that's how it feels whenever i'm matched up against her. Though it could probably be a mis-feeling since I only ever played Taki with Kilik and Hilde and both slaughter her stance.

As far as Sword_Lord's comment about PO B its plausible. Taki's PO B and Mitsu's 2KB are not similar. Mitsu's 2KB is free form (can come out at anytime) with no restrictions and at i18-Frames it becomes unseeable in every respect. Taki's PO B is a stance restriction making it easier to see coming and it becomes even easier to see because it is also the only mid in a set of all highs. It's not the same.

I believe she is mid tier also. I also believe she is definitely better than Tira as well. Tira sucks because she is random so in general no matter how many buffs she gets in future releases overall she will be held back until u can actually control her.

Zasalamel is a long story.
 
Tira's mood changes aren't AS random as you all seem to think. But the random factor does hold her damage potential back. Her real problem imo lies with her life loss. Unwarranted risk on what other characters can do with no risk. She's capable enough despite this. If you think she sucks then you don't know how to use her. BD Tira makes me happy in the pants tho her core issues are still there.
 
My issues with Belial list are

Lizzy> X?
Seigfried>X?

What's wrong with X? She's a solid high to me?
 
Something-Unique said:
Taki's PO B is a stance restriction making it easier to see coming and it becomes even easier to see because it is also the only mid in a set of all highs. It's not the same.
Click to expand...

In theory, Sword Lord is absolutely right about PO B. But if you consider 1BA PO gives +8 on hit and can lead into i17 PO K or i19 PO B, I find it very hard to believe the average player can simply duck, but then stand up on reaction to PO B mid with 9-11 frames to react with...and doing so every time. Either way, both moves are great on block and can lead into a tricky set-up.

I already stated my opinion on Possession: It's not the greatest stance ever, and can't be abused anymore like past SC games...but it still offers a lot of options. Yeah, the stance gets raped by the top-tier party (Kilik...Hilde...lol) But Possession isn't terrible. Really.

I know the effectiveness of the stance is debatable, but however the argument goes, I think we can all agree it would not change her tier placing anywhere away from mid-tier either way. She's a good character, but she just doesn't have the tools and damage that the higher tier characters have. Maybe if Bamco decides to give her Asura...or Summon Suffering...or death fist....lol.

KingAce said:
My issues with Belial list are

Lizzy> X?
Seigfried>X?

What's wrong with X? She's a solid high to me?
Click to expand...

mmm....I would say these three characters are equal tier. But I think Lizzy and Siegfried's damage potential (among few other things) just out classes X overall.

Oh, and Tira still sucks.
 
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