SC5: Improved Competitive Ideas

IvyFanboy

[11] Champion
Oddly enough I avoid characters with JFs, I have a personal distaste for them. But the idea of having the JF meant to be at the end of a combo would enable beginners to do the easy combo and expert players can focus on getting that extra damage. This way you always hit a base damage and occasionally you'll get the max. We already have this in the game, I would just like more of it. It was just an idea.

I still stand by my grabs but can easily see the opposing view point.

The bottom 3 however I feel give new dynamic to the game and further the depth.

these are just ideas, I haven't though all of them out all the way through.
 

Marginal

Chikara Sashimi
Oddly enough I avoid characters with JFs, I have a personal distaste for them. But the idea of having the JF meant to be at the end of a combo would enable beginners to do the easy combo and expert players can focus on getting that extra damage. This way you always hit a base damage and occasionally you'll get the max. We already have this in the game, I would just like more of it. It was just an idea.
Yeah, the thing is, JF's just seem like pissy trouble to casual players. A character like Setsuka is almost crippled without JF's.

On top of that, a better player will actively seek out extra damage through additional moves etc anyway so they can always raise that base damage even if there are no JF's in the game. It's just an extra execution barrier.

I still stand by my grabs but can easily see the opposing view point.
Grabs are already 50/50 as it is. (Less if you consider that you can always Warble 'em too.) SC's got one of the easiest throw break systems of any game on the market. Most of the time you can determine what's coming from context.

If they were going to change the throw system, I'd rather see a move to a VF style throw break buffer system over the Tekken hand setup. Or just go SF style and have throw damage nulled/reduced by ukemi.

The bottom 3 however I feel give new dynamic to the game and further the depth.
I'd go for multi-tiered levels so long as there are still legitimate RO threats on one or two walls etc in most of the stages. That way you still keep the RO game and you also get a glorified wall splat if you knock them down to a lower level. (Wouldn't want a pure DOA approach personally.)
 

Destinizish

Now Sleep Forever
Your theory of, "JFs turn the casual players off" is pretty wrong. SF is one of the biggest fighting games out there right now, competitively and casually, and it uses 1 frame links in BLOCKSTRINGS.

Also, a lot of players (Even casual ones) love high execution characters. While some may not, adding characters like Setsuka isn't a bad thing. Besides, the execution in SC4 is piss easy, why not have something to make it a bit harder?
 

Impending_Doom66

[09] Warrior
I agree with what someone said earlier about seeable throws. Some of the "weaker" characters really need their throws, and I think being able to see which throw it is would only cripple the lower tiered characters even more. Ivy's command throws are different so just be happy with that.
 

JELLY

[09] Warrior
Oh god, please don't add MORE characters.

By the way did anyone else like the SCII versus screen over any other or was it just me? Anyway, other than working on story and graphics, I dont think it needs much more. Even the RO thing, I think, is okay. If ROs were to cut off 30-something% of health, it'd be just like those other fighters right? Then again, a few stages with this would seem okay, but only a few. Also, stages with infinite ground. No walls or edges, similar to two or three of Tekken's stages.
 

IvyFanboy

[11] Champion
I would prefer they add more unique characters like Ivy or Hilde instead of just adding more JFs.
I could actually agree with that over the JFs. Despite the fact I find Hilde broke, I do enjoy the flavor she adds in her control. The idea of Hilde is good, she just needs some fine tuning. I would like to see another Ivy type though. There's a lot of unused weapons that could lead to some cool things.

I think I'm just gonna argue my bottom 4 and omit my combo and JF argument.

I disagree with an infinite stage though. Perhaps maybe have one for practice, but I feel too many characters could exploit that with a keep away strategy. Plus I find it much more interesting to have to constantly control your positioning.
 

LP

Premium Member
I didn't read the first post but I skimmed over the posts. For what I read, my thoughts:

1. Throws shouldn't be seeable in this game. There are really no unbelievable lows in this game save for Amy's 2B+K (which, by the way, is unsafe and has shit range, but whatever). When you actually learn the game, most of the damage comes from spacing and options increased the most at throw distance. If you could see throws, that'd give players even less of a reason to duck or react as they can just block+throw break most of the characters to get the advantage. Most of Tekken's throws suck dick at higher levels because of the way the game is played; you have many more Amy-esque lows, throws have more range, and, even on top of that you have fuzzy guarding and crouch fuzzy guard. Then, there's about 25 frames, most of the time, to see and break a throw in Tekken.

2. I honestly think most people have trouble doing JFs because they just don't try hard enough to get them down. SC is simple enough

3. Ring-outs add a new varible to the game, causing most of the time, one or both players to alter the way that they play, which in itself creates more depth to the fights (much in the same way throw distance does). Many characters already do shit damage against walls. If I'm playing Sets against Talim or Tira, what do I even have to lose by playing with my back to the wall? This creates a situation for some characters where, where they SHOULD have the advantage they still have to be wearier than the person they've put in a 'compromising' position (much like SF does to some of the lower tier characters).

In summation, I think you all, once you start to realize why, if you stick with SC4 and stay on the path of improvement, will become much more appreciative of some of SC's systems. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I think SC4 is the best SC to date.

P.S. I miss the Vs. screen taunts too! Liked doing the screams, laughs, or saying "Payback!" with Talim and Cassie! =D
 

Aragh

[09] Warrior
Stages with obstacles on them is an awesome idea. I also like the idea of JF saving from RO, but only if not knocked too far away from the stage (obviously, you would not be able to reach the edge from afar :P).
There should not be too much new characters, just one+boss maybe should be enough. And the new character must have some interesting weapon like two axes that he/she can put together into a double-edged halberd like this when going into a stance.

oh yeah, and i totally agree that throws should not be distinguishable. Mind games are a very big and important part of any SC fight and they should not be diminished by excluding throws from them.
 
Nerfing RO's? Wow. What a horrible suggestion. Considering the fact they've already been nerfed(play older caliburs). Little thing called AIR CONTROL was your answer to avoiding ROs after being hit once while in the air. Hilde breaking a key FUNDAMENTAL of SC isn't a green light to revamp(or in this case suggest a revamp) that entire system.

Multi-tier stages sound ridiculous to me. This isn't DOA/MK, its Soul "goddamn" Calibur. I don't care for +20 dmg and a chance for my opponent to comeback a round when I knock them off the stage. I expect a win/loss for outplaying them/getting outplayed by them, that round.
 

IdleMind

BANNED FOREVER
If you make throws distinguishable, you are rewarding turtles and punishing offense. Indistinguishable throws promote certain ideas, subtly:

A) If your in a situation where you have to guess, you did something wrong.

B) If you do not want to be in that situation; you must be more proactive that hitting G; like either being on offense, doing TC moves or just plain attacking or in some cases jumping.

Tekken 3, TTT, T5/DR as perfect examples; are largely defensive games. Backdash, guard, see throw, break throw. Let me tell you as a veteran of the Tekken tournament scene; it is NOT fun.

As to your other ideas, I could take or leave them; but it wouldn't be Soul Calibur anymore. My primary point of concern is this idea that you should be able to have a clear option to beat something within the microcosm of that situation; without thinking about how you GOT to that situation in the first place. Actually getting RO'd falls under that too. You didn't magically teleport to the ring edge; you got hit in a bad position; i.e. made a mistake. Don't give people more chances to rectify mistakes, thats how super-turtly and boring fighters are made imo.

-Idle
 

Malice

Super Moderator
Most of these ideas sound like you guys want this game to turn into Tekken. Just go play Tekken. And I doubt that they will make the game more competitive. SC4 is competitive enough, it's just that players need to actually compete in it.

For the sake of this thread, if there is a SC5, then I would like to see some more flash, polish, and attention to detail to the game as a whole and to do away with the guest/bonus character gimmick so that people take the game more seriously. Critical finished should be treated more as an essential part of the gameplay to keep people from turtling all day like bitches and seen less as just some gimmick. Netcode needs to be improved dramatically. And Namco needs to show more support to the game since most people cannot stick with a fighting game for more than a year these days.
 

IvyFanboy

[11] Champion
I didn't read the first post but I skimmed over the posts. For what I read, my thoughts:

1. Throws shouldn't be seeable in this game. There are really no unbelievable lows in this game save for Amy's 2B+K (which, by the way, is unsafe and has shit range, but whatever). When you actually learn the game, most of the damage comes from spacing and options increased the most at throw distance. If you could see throws, that'd give players even less of a reason to duck or react as they can just block+throw break most of the characters to get the advantage. Most of Tekken's throws suck dick at higher levels because of the way the game is played; you have many more Amy-esque lows, throws have more range, and, even on top of that you have fuzzy guarding and crouch fuzzy guard. Then, there's about 25 frames, most of the time, to see and break a throw in Tekken.

2. I honestly think most people have trouble doing JFs because they just don't try hard enough to get them down. SC is simple enough

3. Ring-outs add a new varible to the game, causing most of the time, one or both players to alter the way that they play, which in itself creates more depth to the fights (much in the same way throw distance does). Many characters already do shit damage against walls. If I'm playing Sets against Talim or Tira, what do I even have to lose by playing with my back to the wall? This creates a situation for some characters where, where they SHOULD have the advantage they still have to be wearier than the person they've put in a 'compromising' position (much like SF does to some of the lower tier characters).

In summation, I think you all, once you start to realize why, if you stick with SC4 and stay on the path of improvement, will become much more appreciative of some of SC's systems. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I think SC4 is the best SC to date.

P.S. I miss the Vs. screen taunts too! Liked doing the screams, laughs, or saying "Payback!" with Talim and Cassie! =D
My idea still uses ROs, they just don't instant kill all the time. They do a set amount of damage. They'll still be an integral part of the game and can result in wins, but it gives players the chance to recover from one mistake while not always ending the match. Ever been RO'd on the first move of Seesaw level?
 

Aragh

[09] Warrior
Critical finished should be treated more as an essential part of the gameplay to keep people from turtling all day like bitches and seen less as just some gimmick.
No way. I dont like a whole SG and CF idea at all. Turtling is just another style of playing. Its the same in FPS's where people bitch and whine about camping. Campers camp, turtles turtle. Its their choice how they play the game. End of story.
I just dont want SC to turn into an all out offensive game. I favor a balance between offensive and defensive options.
 

LP

Premium Member
That's part of the beauty of SC to me, though. It creates another variable that actually supercedes a lot of other things in a match, which, in turn, can create all types of mindgames. I hate being rung out just as much as the next guy when I have a health advantage, but, like Idle said, most of the time, you know what situation you're in. And, hell, if a guy is good enough to mask his intent to ring someone out, he obviously outplayed you and you obviously didn't respect his game enough to consider it. Other than that, set damage? Nah, they already have walled stages and all that stuff. I want to be able to visibly see the fear my opponent has because they know that there's nothing between them and and defeat other than their own wit!

Seriously, SC is one of the most beautiful games ever, to me. Honestly, one of the few things I think they should do is make the SG game stronger and possibly create more frame advantage for some of the characters who have short range and can't space as well, but yeah. I think, if there's a SC5, that the team doing it is only getting better. At first I thought the SG was kinda iffy, but now I think that needs to be strengthened, because not only does it deter turtling through having a SG and not wanting to be CF'd, but it creates a situation in which a player has to almost completely change their playstyle if they don't want to lose (which further diminishes complete turtling as a viable playstyle).
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No way. I dont like a whole SG and CF idea at all. Turtling is just another style of playing. Its the same in FPS's where people bitch and whine about camping. Campers camp, turtles turtle. Its their choice how they play the game. End of story.
I just dont want SC to turn into an all out offensive game. I favor a balance between offensive and defensive options.

Nobody's saying completely demolish turtling as a viable strategy, but, just as you're being rewarding for turtling through counter, causing whiffs, and punishing, I think other players should be able to create more holes in defenses. Like I said, SC doesn't have too many gameplay changing mixups. You have a character like Talim going up against Ivy who has to COMPLETELY outplay the latter in order to just CLOSE DISTANCE and then not even be sure she's going to get a big payoff for doing well (which, I actually like because it creates diversity, but, hell, Ivy can even contend and outplay Talim at close range, which you could argue is a design flaw on Talim's part, but alas).

Like I said, though, no one's disagreeing that's turtling should be a part of the game, as, once again, it adds diversity, but the SG adds another variable, which adds even further depth to the game, in my honest opinion and strengthening it will not only increase the pace of the match and how quickly a player has to think and react but it will also cause the SC community to grow competitively as playstyles and matchups and counters, old and new, are tested and perfected.
 

Aragh

[09] Warrior
@LostProvidence
I see your point, but i think there are better methods for increasing diversity, pace etc. Lets continue with Ivy vs Talim example. Talim struggles to close distance to Ivy. Ivy keeps attacking to keep Talim as far as possible. Talim is forced to block and is constantly pushed back. Her SG drops at a high rate. With SG damages increased, Ivy gets a free CF victory in a few attacks.
SG damages as they are now are not big enough to make above scenario a reality, but increasing them is dangerous for game balance (which is already skewed but heck). Give Talim tools to close distance better and then we may talk about making SG stronger.
SC5 will just need to have more balanced characters and more unique character-specific abilities like X taunts or Sets impacts giving them access to some attacks, Hilde charges, Maxi looping through his stances or Tira's moods. That will increase diversity of characters.
As to diversity of playstyles: you cant force people to change the way they play during the match. Everyone has their style and its difficult and not-so-fun to play the other way. Diversity of playstyles must be a derivative of characters' diversity and each character's depth.
 

LP

Premium Member
I agree with, mostly, everything you said, in particular bringing up other characters at least to a level where some matchups are more manageable (even if still unfavorable). And I think you misinterpreted what I mean when I say "change their playstyle"; what I mean is that, if someone is doing something that is causing them to lose, if they want to win, they're going to stop doing whatever it is that's causing them to lose.
 

Freaky

[09] Warrior
What I'm worried about is that Namco is trying to make this game more like Tekken. Look at the last few characters added to SC. Hilde, Algol, Dampierre, Kratos, and to some extent Apprentice, all have multi-hit aerial combos that deal large damage. Also, in BD wall combo damage was boosted dramatically while ringout potential was reduced. What I hope for above all the other stuff listed in this thread is that Namco will get seriously innovative in the next version and not make it into some less successful Tekken clone.
 

IvyFanboy

[11] Champion
I think the SG/CF system was a brilliant idea. You CAN still turtle but you must be more sparing. It forces you to be diverse and to take chances. I play Ivy very defensively and have found the SG system to be a very key element in my style of play. I can't really say much in bad matchups such as Talim that are forced to block on the way in, but it's a good start. I prefer this over chip damage since it's recoverable and can build to an alternate win creating a deeper element to the game.

As for shooters...Games have been buffing camping snipers WAY too much. The bain that is quick regenerating health have made it impossible for some strategies to coexist. My favorite strategy was to wear opponents down then finish them with a rush in or some spread weapon. You can't do that any more in most shooters. Being aggressive only works in MW2 (and that games is silly broke). But i digress...
 

Aragh

[09] Warrior
@LostProvidence
so increasing SG damage will make turtling a thing likely to cause someone to lose even more than it is now. That will pretty much exclude turtling from the list of viable defensive playstyles, thus making whole game system more offense-favoring. I wouldnt like that. Its just my subjective opinion.

@IvyFanBoy
What i dont like with SG is actually CFs. Lets imagine a battle: agressive player vs defensive player. Agressive guy launches a furious assault upon the defensive dude employing all kinds of tricks,mixups and whatever hes got. But the defensive guy shows awesome skill and blocks all of these attacks showing great knowledge and patience. And he gets what? Maybe a punish opportunity or two and an instant loss. Pathetic.
Once again, the scenario i come up with is an extreme case, not likely to happen with current SG damage, and especially not possible when the defensive player plays a defensive character with good punishing options (like Sophie), but getting more probable if SG is made stronger.
I dont like CFs but they dont ruin the game. Yet. If SG gets stronger, they will. Im not entirely against removing SG and CFs, but only against making them stronger.
[offtopic] And about fpses: my last big online experience was with BC2 and i feel that being agressive and in motion is the best option there. Camping is quite risky and even a little difficult there but people still whine. Also, if you watch some trailers of incoming fps's (medal of honor, cod:black ops, bulletstorm) you will see they all seem to go action&agression way.[/offtopic]