SC5 'Ivy' Story/Possibilities/Speculation

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Ring said:
Why not? Ivy traditionally has the best movement (or top 3 at least) in every SC game :P I think they will make the movement the same for every character, again just like in BD, but this is imo a big mistake. Imagine Setsuka with Hilde's step with B+K/aGb whiff punish. Or even better, Asta with Hilde's step. I don't even want to think about this...
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I wasn't talking about her movement in general, only about her backstep.
That in combination with the huge pushbacks (like after SW 3B) was almost enough in SC4 to give her a 7:3 advantage against all closerange characters. I showed that in the Anti-video I made. When you block her SW 3B in SC4 she gets into a perfect spacing situation afterwards with backstep and CL 1BB+K. And a SW 3B is a forced block like after 90% of her combos. So I'm very glad that her SW 3B seems to have a much smaller pushback (as we saw it in the fight against Natsu). I personally think that the pushback nerf of her SW 3B is really useful, a justified nerf imo.

So yeah, they may keep the movements, but have to nerf something else. Is there anything that Ivy doesn't have (except normal clothes and a human-like body) or isn't good at in SC4? Honestly? The only thing I can think of is maybe that she doesn't have good auto GI's, but then she has the christmas tree which is still a nice finisher. And yet I read that someone asked for a "useful" auto GI, don't remember who it was. I don't really understand that. :)
Maybe I should create a wishlist for Leixia asking for everything that Xianghua didn't have in SC4... :P

But as for the movement changes in BD... omg, Namco no!
 
Ring said:
I'm not sure if you read my post earlier but I wrote that stance lock doesn't change anything, just makes it slightly easier to spam certain moves. They would have to completely re-design Ivy to change this or remove stance cool-down (which would result in crazy combos and much more possibilities for Ivy)

Now don't vent your frustration here, you whiner :P
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I would already be happy if spamming moves would be "slighty" harder :P I think i need to check one day what they did to stance-lock in SC BD, never ever seen that game.

so I'll just stop expressing my endless frustration from here on..:) Maybe i will go into the Amy forum and tell them how brainless their character is, anybody in? :) :) (im sure nounours is in :P )
 
I assure you that you would love BD :P Setsuka is possibly the best character in the game and Cervy is a very good character, much better than Ivy.

[whine] BD Ivy is a sad story. The worst thing they did to her is that in order to change the stance you have to press A+K or B+K, you cannot hold it. The feeling of stance fluidity and versatility is gone. The character is no longer fun to play but just revolting.

What they did to stance lock is just preventing some moves to come out infinitely. Like if you try CL 1B,B+K only 1B will come out if you hold A+B in CL. If you try WP 6B+K and hold A/A+K you will get WP 6B etc.. It's actually quite funny how they did everything they could to "balance" this, destroying her fluidity and best moves in the process, and it only took 30min on practice mode to get around that :P so in the end, nothing has changed in this matter. [/whine]

@Kalas, I'd have to write a lot about that :P she is bad at punishing for example and even worse, it's situational so the best options are not available at any time. Same goes for other moves , like lows. She indeed is good at many things but it doesn't look that good in reality when there is no access to them at any time.
 
Partisan said:
This thread needs more story discussion imho.
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So story-wise, they were talking alot about how Ivy is gonna be involved a lot more in the story and will even be connected to the other characters a lot more. I think shes gonna have her own little team rocket with Ivy the boss, itll make up for the lack of the Tri-stain that was X, Max and Kilik. I really hope Tira makes the team but she might be too old or just looking for the perfect betrayal opportunity.

Ring said:
What they did to stance lock is just preventing some moves to come out infinitely. Like if you try CL 1B,B+K only 1B will come out if you hold A+B in CL. If you try WP 6B+K and hold A/A+K you will get WP 6B etc.. It's actually quite funny how they did everything they could to "balance" this, destroying her fluidity and best moves in the process, and it only took 30min on practice mode to get around that :P so in the end, nothing has changed in this matter. [/whine]
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Stance lock is so obvious as soon as you see someone do it, and the depreciating returns or whatever make the damage negligible, say like tech trapping whip 1_2_3 B+k. But its not like its gonna matter in V. For one thing they wanna make her easier but i would say that her complexity will probably be in her bar management. All the ubs that are no longer ubs but just flashy moves. Its gonna be scary.
 
@ Ring

Really? Oh, I am so sorry for all the Ivy players that she's bad at punishing.... damn that sucks, if only I knew it before....:P Why did nobody ask for a 236B i13 available from every stance yet? :P

Well, I hope that some of you understand the non-Ivy-player's point of view and that not every critic about Ivy is whining. ;)

@ doc
Ok, mission accomplished. Let's go to Amy SA next and Setsuka SA afterwards. :P
 
She is really bad at punishing...such a pity ...what did Namco think when they designed her? :)

But honestly from SW 6B8K for 35 DMG isnt bad at all, is it? NC, +2 on hit, available from FC so you can punish from FC...not bad imo. Sure its a high but you cant have it all Ring :P

You know Yoshiplayers hate their WS game? In fact they just refuse to use 6K effectively, at least nobody perfected 6K punishment...you have to take what you get :)

Are there ANY moves that can be heavily ABUSED against Ivy because she is bad at punishing? I dont know any of them, she can even punish Setsukas B+K when she is in sword. So if thats not the case i dont see it as a big problem. What she lacks in punishement she can get back from sick step, backstep whiff punishement etc. Who gets SO much opprtunities to whiff punish after a back step like Ivy? Algol maybe....
 
Furzy was surprised when I told him that he can punish 9B and 9gBs with 6K2k. Luckily it was after we played.

SW 6B8K is ok, it's even available in CL and WP as well (through a glitch ... of course:P) but it's hard to do and it's i14 not i13. But fear not everyone, I already asked in the wishlist for the new punisher :PP
 
Lol at least you only put "new punisher", not "new punisher that is available from every stance and from FC which is positive on Hit and allows to change the Stance( including an Auto GI) afterwards".

You can have your new shitty punisher :P
 
Lol, everything is gonna be better. Even a normal K with + on hit. Something that we hadn't see since SC3 :P

I didn't specify what exactly I'd like to see but probably something that's around i16 and does about 40dmg. Right now she only gets some damage from -18~19. The rest is 2K or i16 6K for small dmg
 
WuHT said:
But on Ivy topic, I'm surprised how little her ivy lick air AT is implemented in SC4. That was her signature AT to me at least.
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Reason is the 214k does more damage, so more people go for that. So yea I like to see 214K toned down so that this become the better option to do for most launch finishers.
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As regard to stance glitch it was probably over looked, because of Hilde. I don't think the developers really intended it, they try to fix it in BD but there are ways around it. What odd in BD is for SW 2A+K you can still hold B to stay in SW. For SC5 I don't think there will be the stance transition because then SS/CS would be a very easy mix up after anything.

From what we seen there seems to be no more SS like before, only CS, and you need to use meter for SS after using a normal throw.

For punishment I don't think Ivy should excel in that area. I think her focuses should be creating pressure, making the opponent worry too much about her lows/mids/command throws.

Also people should know they give character wearing heels the best side step and back dash. Its a fact.
 
Doc.
SC4 Ivy's punishment game really is her weakness. Without it, she would be godlike (what ? she already is ?).
She also has not great frame data (it's just very good). It is strong enough to deal with 2/3 of the cast but can be considered as a weakness against Amy or Sophitia for example.

SW 6B8K has the same weakness that Yoshi's 6K2K. The first hit is high.
That still is strong, but not enought to deal with moves like Voldo BS 1A, or Amy's 2B+K.
Yes, not any character in the cast as such lows. But hey, let's speak about real character and not about Xiang !

Unsafe moves that Setsuka can spam :
11A: Punishment is not good enough to force you to stop to use this move
Ba: Not spammable against CL, and not spammable at close range.
2A+B: Punishment is laughable. Ah yes, it's steppable... sry !
6K: Against WP only.
B+K: Not against SW. Scud is the only Ivy player that I know who can use 8kB glitch consistently in real match. So not against Scud either.

But Setsuka is very safe. So she don't need to add many unsafe moves to her command list to deal with Ivy.
This is very different against Voldo for example, Cassandra or Raphael (but yes, they have lots of other problems against Ivy).
Voldo can ABUSE BS 1A and 66A+B. Ivy's only way to deal with it is to backdash or step. Just like 8wr is the only way to deal with Ivy's 1B B+K. So, yes there are some moves.

Whiff punish after BackDash ?
Nightmare. 33B + mind game.
Sophitia. TAS B TAS B. Half life.
BS Voldo. 44A 3B A+B 1A -> 100 dmg.
Cassandra. 236: [ B ] *6 4BB:A or 236 2B8BAA.
Lizardman. 3B 33A+B.
Mitsurugi. 8wr A+B 33B.
...
Do not whiff
 
Malek i absolutely agree that punishment is her "weakness" :) Thats why i asked if there are any moves which can be heavily abused against her to exploit that fact. Then again she has other ways to compromize that fact (Better movement, better spacing, better SG Damage)...we should thank the SC God that she doesnt have a good punisher from every stance :P

You will agree that Setsuka 11A and 2A+B wont alone win any match against her. 11A is good to catch excessive step for heavy ch DMG, 2A+B is really hard to land, i think ive landed it 2-3 against Ring in 25 Matches :) So maybe im too bad to land this move or its just not that big of a problem to deal with if you see the animation. And 6K has such a short range, i dont think you should be in WP in front of Setsukas face anyway....

Voldo BS 1A and Amy 2B+K i agree, but in Amys case it feels like its more a design mistake in Amys move, not in the weak punishment of Ivy. You know Yoshi has the same problem against this move, lets just agree 2B+K is the problem, not the punishment of Ivy :P
 
Ring said:
Furzy was surprised when I told him that he can punish 9B and 9gBs with 6K2k. Luckily it was after we played.
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Yeah but it's still hard to punish since the move comes out so fast… Kinda like punishing Sieg's 3B with 6K, you have to look for it :-/
 
Ring said:
I didn't specify what exactly I'd like to see but probably something that's around i16 and does about 40dmg. Right now she only gets some damage from -18~19. The rest is 2K or i16 6K for small dmg
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Ah those low tiers who would have to settle for for i16 for >= 30 damage (nevermind 40) lol.
Mina has her 6B+K for 26, zas has his BB4 for 30, maxi has his crummy BB for 27, sieg has B6 for 20, rock has.. err grabs?

I mean it doens't seem like these characters have anything close to 40 damage at i16, and I think any ivy player here in this SA knows how much worse they are at other aspects of the game that I need not mention.

So has anyone ever created a list of weaknesses for Ivy that they'd be ok with, considering that she is top 3 in many different categories, she's got to have at least some weaknesses. IMO there will be a massive trade off in other areas if Ivy can consistantly punish -16 moves for 40 damage and + frames too.
 
It's not like having a punisher like that would be of any help to Zas, Mina or Maxi since they suck at other aspects like you mentioned yourself. I don't think that 10 dmg buff to her punisher is something that would have to be compensated in a massive trade off in other areas.

Besides I think you look too much at the damage. There are other things to take into account: like range, high/mid, effect on hit (- frames, KND or maybe +?), availability from FC , frames on block et cetera.
 
yeah, all those i mentioned are ass on block (mina's is HH and 2nd hit crouchable on block) except siegs.

don't you think.. if anyone deserves buffs it would be those that suck at other aspects instead of a character that is so dominant already ? I don't understand your logic of saying if characters XYZ suck at something they shoulnd't get buffs elsewhere, while a character that is already consistently toptier should get that buff.
 
What I meant was that those character should be fixed in other areas first, because giving them a stronger punish wouldn't change much, there should be other priorities. Only that I don't think it will happen. I know from Malek that the developers intended some characters to be low tier. This is the logic I can't fully understand even though he explained me that.

Let's forget that Ivy was top in SC4 and think what are the new possibilities for her in the next game. She is gonna be a different character once again.
 
sorry there is only one part I cannot let go: I have heard of that japanese expression "Wabi-sabi" where in that EGM article certain levels of unbalance was intentional. In the same article I also recall him mentioning that the priority of being a fun game to play, and as a non-japanese person, I think that having imbalance directly violates the fun principle. This discussion was briefly mentioned in the general forums, but luckily I don't ever think Ivy will be on the wrong end of wabi-sabi
 
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