RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
Half speaking of tier lists wont even be there... but I do hope they goto Final Round
SCV Tier List
- Thread starter Makatak
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Half speaking of tier lists wont even be there... but I do hope they goto Final Round
Cosmic_Castaway
[09] Warrior
Execution isn't a skill. Now I've heard everything.
If you play badly with Alpha Patroklos, you are going to lose, plain and simple. Hell, that's true of every character in this game. Comparing him to SCIV Hilde is probably the worst thing, like, ever. "Oh just land a combo." NOPE.AVI
Hilde's problem was that she could just force you to accept shit and set you up for the biggest reward in the game with no barrier whatsoever. If you just go in with Alpha and press buttons against someone good, you're going to get messed up. Your execution has to be on point at all times to perform his best stuff. Screw up a 1B:B, and get launched. Screw up a FC 3B:B, and there's a launch too. If a player can't do any of that on a consistent basis, then they're missing what makes Alpha so great, and beating them shouldn't be that much of a problem. Shitty players lose to better players, and shitty players will not do well in the long run with Alpha.
caseh
[09] Warrior
There was more to Hilde's game than just her doom combo > RO. Granted Hilde was broken hence why she was banned and the GI off c3a was ridiculous and could stop most offensive players. With that said I never encountered a single noob who used either Hilde or Ivy effectively.
But if most noobs knew about Hilde/Ivy = easy wins why did I only encounter her online a hand full of times in around 7000 fights? because picking someone like mistu and rinsing 66b (think this was the input, could have been a) or his low sweep was easier to learn and just as effective if not more effective. That goes back to a scale of: ease of use > complexity.
Obviously i'm basing this off online observations so there are factors such as lag tactics etc. But just because I don't attend tournaments or compete at a top level with Daigo etc doesn't mean a tier list is wasted on me. Its a great basis for seeing who is effective at the highest levels of play and with the online play in SC5 as good as it is it will most likely be even more relevent for people like me.
But if most noobs knew about Hilde/Ivy = easy wins why did I only encounter her online a hand full of times in around 7000 fights? because picking someone like mistu and rinsing 66b (think this was the input, could have been a) or his low sweep was easier to learn and just as effective if not more effective. That goes back to a scale of: ease of use > complexity.
Obviously i'm basing this off online observations so there are factors such as lag tactics etc. But just because I don't attend tournaments or compete at a top level with Daigo etc doesn't mean a tier list is wasted on me. Its a great basis for seeing who is effective at the highest levels of play and with the online play in SC5 as good as it is it will most likely be even more relevent for people like me.
darkfender
[10] Knight
I also played whoazz but that was online on scIV lol but was fun the same....
do you know after ivy started to win how many people started to play IVY?
Where are them now ;)
People likes to win with the less effort possible.......the others just plays raphael (i would've said rock once) or maxi and lose with style XD
As i said try to ask yourself if at decent levels its more challenging on scIV to win with IVY, hilde or ROCK (if you can t, you can find the answer asking what happened 2 world cups ago and who was praysed as an hero XD).
Translate that with scV tiers.
BAdhabits
[08] Mercenary
I don't quite get what you're trying to say here.
Please revise that post man, it's painful to read.
darkfender
[10] Knight
i think a character that can easily punish TC, half screen for 100+ (and without BE also if BE is involved is even worse) damage is easy to compare with a character with a charge that actually have to HIT or aGI.
Expecially in a game that cannot be played as safe as scIV.
A thing quite easy to understand.
@badhabits....
actually at wc 2010 nobody cared about the tons of hilde users, but everybody raised a rock player.
And most ivy players playng her because SHE WAS EASY to win with, left her jumping on the natsu train......they'll probably switch again to patsuka when he will show some results.
Forgive my english.
Azazel
[12] Conqueror
I don't mean to offend anyone, but for my experience since SCII, the tier list from France and Germany have always been the worst and most inaccurate. If you want a real tier list wait at least after EVO and check back on this website.
Bushido
[09] Warrior
How many times have we seen this debate in various other fighting game threads?
Execution is a barrier of entry for the real game, the real game is about beating your opponent, not about about fighting the controls.
top players are assumed to have complete control mastery over their characters, where they can perform everything anytime they want it on command. the assumed difficulty of said character is irrelevant, making a move extremely good on the basis that it is harder to input than another move is a mistake. Both top players have complete control of their character, but the player using the character with the better moves will have the advantage, so why would the other player use anything other than the harder to control character?
MysticBoudha
[10] Knight
I have been playing Akira since VF1 like crazy. Akira isn't an easy character to play but he his far from the hardest. Im far from top japanese execution skills but i can tell you for sure that the system in itself needs more execution skills than a character in VF. Also if you think that Akira is hard to use. Real Kage players would like to have a word with you. Only difficult move that Akira has his is one frame knee. Which is pretty much like Yoshi a:B+K now.
With all that said, Akira is top tier in VF5FS and im glad he his cause usually he's not. I don't know where you get your crappy VF knowledge but it's mad wrong.
About SSF IV AE. You talking about minority? DAIGO himself said that Yun isn't broken because of how good he his but of how easy to use he his. All the japanese community agreed ( in general ) that Yang and Viper where top in 2012. You sir are just spouting nonsense and i won't stand there and do nothing about it. Get your facts straight.
On the topic at hand i agree completely with Cosmic here. People at high level won't play hard to use characters even if they are considered that much OP. Let 3 or 4 majors pass and my bet his you will see no Patsuka has the winner in those.
With all that said, its FAR too early to have tier lists with a so much different SC now. And even if there is one i think it will be pretty balanced. Akira always top tier :S LMFAO!!!!!!
MysticBoudha
[10] Knight
I almost totally agree with you except in one point. Complete mastery is NEVER achieved. Top players IN ALL fighting games drop combo's and miss JF or links etc...... I do agree that making a character who his hard as fuck to use, too powerful would be broken but in a sense if you have more chance at missing an input and your character is as strong as the less harder one you won't ever use him .
This is why i kind of agree here. Given we are forced to have some harder to use characters we need them to be kind of a bit stronger. But it would be different if a game would have its characters easy to use. Anyways any game will have a tier list unless all characters are exactly the same. Making all characters easy to use and focusing solely on the mind game in fighters would also be kinda sad though. I personnaly like different mechanics and difficulty levels. Every fighting game player out there plays for different reasons and likes different aspect of the game so its kinda of a useless debate as to whetever execution is important or not.
Personnaly i won't ever play Patsuka even though i fuckin love his fighting style, because of the high exection which pisses me off but i understand and accept that some people like this and get their kick out of playing high execution characters.
Cosmic_Castaway
[09] Warrior
All that proves is that execution isn't a factor in tiers, which I agree with entirely anyway. And at the point of high level play that you are describing, it is the player winning the match, not the character, no? The player put in the effort to master that character. If the game is about beating your opponent, the character you are using is irrelevant.
I also don't think Alpha Patroklos is GDLK to the point where playing him is the only option, but that's just me.
Bushido
[09] Warrior
I also enjoy different styles and having a style being harder to use is fine, but making a tactic overpowered with the only balancing factor it's complexity is a bad idea.
But, as I said, some styles and tactics are made harder to input or use at will as a good design choice. Guile in SF is based off of charge moves, his sonic boom has great recovery, much better than other motion based fireballs, but to balance that, it has to be charged and can't be thrown out on a whim.
This is a good design and allows a character to be played different and be rewarded for playing that style.
But, as I said, some styles and tactics are made harder to input or use at will as a good design choice. Guile in SF is based off of charge moves, his sonic boom has great recovery, much better than other motion based fireballs, but to balance that, it has to be charged and can't be thrown out on a whim.
This is a good design and allows a character to be played different and be rewarded for playing that style.
Ring
Lay still now
He's not that hard to play as some people make him to be. Setsuka was difficult, but now that "umbrella" (FC 3a:B) has the property of hitting grounded opponents every combo is really easy, no strict timings. He is completely broken.
docvizzo
[14] Master
I dont even want an answer...first of all we (Germany) never did tier Lists, then the french Matchup Chart for SC4 was by far the best. Telling people to come on 8wayrun for a Tier List...lol. 95% here are noobs and the few good players dont actually post. Even people with hundreds of post on this website dont even know what a combo is and how to test, true story.
The tierlist of the french chart is done by proved players, not by some internet 8wayrun heroes (Dont mean you with this).
sWoRD_LoRD
[09] Warrior
what!? How is he better than Setsuka? He's slower than her, he doesn't have her sc3 A+K, his recovery and speed after single B isn't as good. Doesn't have her B grab VC. Setsuka was never called broke, so why would you say that about him? Unless he has some sort of OMG amazing combo I don't know about.
Ring
Lay still now
He's much stronger than Setsuka. He doesn't need meter to deal sick damage after almost everything. Setsuka in SC4 was very good, but most of her combos were pretty strict in timinng. It's not the case in SCV because FC 3a:B hits grounded opponent. He has i12 mid 80dmg punishments, best throw mixup in the game, i8 CE that's guaranteed after everything and punishes almost everything on block. A lot of his tools are pretty spammable like 1B:B, and safe on block, he gets 100 dmg after many things, it's a joke.
You should ask someone who mains him, I don't want people to say I cry about another character:P if he gets suddenly nerfed it's gonna be my fault again and Docvizzo will stop talking to me xD I don't want that.
caseh
[09] Warrior
Despite him not having all of Setsuka's moves neither does any other character have the full moveset from SC4. Maybe the semi-skimmed movesets of the characters in SC5 make him harder to deal with?
sWoRD_LoRD
[09] Warrior
semi skimmed movesets don't matter, alot of the characters still got beefed up. 1B:B has never been spammable. You can auto-GI, JG, or GI that. Setsuka had the best throw mixup in the game in sc3 (after Lizardman), that's nothing new. Losing the properties of single B is a pretty big deal, to the point that I wouldn't main him because of that alone. I don't know his combos too well though...
Ring
Lay still now
You can only JG in SCV. You cannot step step, aGI and GI the second hit (it was possible in SC4).
docvizzo
[14] Master
Hey if you do this with all Chars one day Ivy will be Top again! You can do it! :P
Then again if you mess up a JF Umbrella and get normal one, you can be punished for that. 75 DMG with Omgea or free CEs...
Funny fact: When i tried to do this i needed so many attempts because i was unable to NOT do JF Umbrella :P
So his execution is even more important than in SC4 imo. Still he seems crazy good to me, too. But time will show.
Also my thumb hurts really bad from all the JF Umbrellas and iGDRs...
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