SCV Tier List

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My turn:

Top:
Natsu, APat, NM
High:
Asta, Pat, Pyrrah, Lexia, Mitsu, OPyrrah
Mid:
Xiba, Maxi, Algol, Hilde, Voldo, Tira, Yoshi, Voldo
Mid Low:
Ivy, ZWEI, Aeon, Raph, Viola
Low:
Sieg, Le Bello, Ezio.
 
Synraii said:
No real comeback to me pointing out your (B) theory was bollocks?

I guess that means I win the argument. =)
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I told you to watch the video, but you refused. Not my fault.
distr2.gif

I can show you more too, btw. Annnnd I could also record my friend's ZWEI.
 
Cosmic_Castaway said:
I don't see how speed is a problem when everyone considers two of the slowest characters in the game (Nightmare and Astaroth) to be really good. Also, clarify what you mean by "EIN doesn't save him that much."
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They're not good because of their slow moves, they're good because of their fast moves (and good combos).
 
Synraii said:
I disagree for several reasons, which I will list below:

1. The hitbox on bullrush, while still enormous is smaller, making it much easier to step and in making it a KND on CH, Asta losses his main reason for one to stand. What can he force a throw mixup with outside the edge now? It was hard enough to force a stand in SCIV, lol.
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To be completely honest, no disrespect intended, but analysis of Astaroth's 66K (bullrush) is week one material.

I'll start by agreeing with you. 66K, bullrush, has taken somewhat of a nerf. The tracking is less reliable compared to SCIV. There's no KND on NH, anymore. No KND on NH is now replaced by +10 advantage. Which is still good. However, 66K isn't the move to fear.

Astaroth's FC 3K is also Bullrush. However, properties are different. FC 3K tracks leagues better compared to 66K. FC 3K also is KND on NH, and does 2DMG points more than 66K. The only "negative" difference between FC 3K and 66K is that 66K is -10 on GRD. Where as FC 3K is -12. Meaning, instead of only 3 characters with the ability to punish bullrush with an AA and/or CE, there's now 5, or so.

Would you call this a nerf? I've had no problem implementing FC 3K as a substitute for 66K. Neither have a lot of other Astaroth mains.

One more thing, I'm confused on this part of your paragraph-
The hitbox on bullrush, while still enormous is smaller, making it much easier to step and in making it a KND on CH, Asta losses his main reason for one to stand.
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In SCIV, why would you need to stand for bullrush? If I did bullrush in SCIV on Oki, or whilst you're rolling, it would completely whiff. In SCV, it still whiffs unless you use 66K:BE (66K:BE hit OTG). The main reason to stand VS Astaroth in SCIV was fear of his 2A+K, and 4b on Oki. Seeing as 4B still tracks, that's plenty of reason to wake up. Wouldn't losing his grabs be the reason for "one not to stand?" The statement makes absolutely no sense.

Synraii said:
He is just to slow at point blank: all he really has is 4B, 6AA and 6K, if one gets in he's very weak to rushdown and even if Asta guesses right you need a CH to make it pay dividends. As for stepkill with Astaroth, all his close range step kill is unsafe and very risky.
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Haha, uhm, yeah... Astaroth has always been slow, close range. In SCV he has 4B, 6A, 2k, 6k, 4K ,3K series and 66K or FC 3K can be added as well. In SCIV he had the exact same tools. I fail to see where your comparison was going. Bottom line, Astaroth has always been slow close range.

4B is i16, and +6 on NH. Why would you need a CH for that? a +6 advantage is plenty enough, even for Astaroth. 6AA is i13, and kills step. Using the move is risky, but it should only be used to predict step or interrupt. If you were to opt for just 6A as an interrupt (something I do) use becomes less risky. 6K has taken a nerf, but is still use-able. He's got better tools now, though.

You also forget that in CLOSE range (and MID range, too) Astaroth has the best grabs in the game. This is including his low grabs, and air grabs (more so his A+G air throw). I've stated, several times since release, Astaroth's grabs should be used more so to scare people from rushing, or implemented at tip range.

Yes, Astaroth is "slow at point blank." If he had Pyrrha's AA, or an i14 2A he would be stupid good. S-Tier, maybe. However, this has been Astaroth's core problem since day one. I did have this in mind when I put him in B-Tier.

Synraii said:
3. Damage in this game compared to Astaroth's risk/reward. His problem (imo) is that while he has good damage, he works on high risk 50/50s due to his throw/mid mixup being a real 50/50 between step and crouch in this game. Guess wrong once and you will take 80-100 damage, in some matchups. We all know that if Asta launches you by the wall with meter, then you won't be getting up, but in landing that sort of combo, Asta almost always risks death in the process.
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What? Risk death? I didn't know that characters had WR moves that deal 240DMG. Oh wait, they don't. Grabbing, with any character, is a risk. You risk a grapple break. You risk said person ducking/jumping. In reality, it's not a 50/50. It's more of a 1/3 chance of landing a grab (theoretically, of course) Why is this different for Astaroth in a negative way compared to the rest of the cast?

Judging from your post, you seem to think Astaroth is grab reliant. Yes, grabs have and always will be in his top tools. But, being able to actually kill step/backdash from range (4A, 44A, FC 3K, 22_88AA) makes his spacing game legitimate, as I mentioned previously. Especially compared to SCIV gimmick spacing Astaroth. In fact, your best tools in SCV are at MID-range.
-4A (CH: free grab attempt, possible RO/Wallsplat)
-44A/44(A)
-44B
-66B
-FC 3K
-66K
-22_88b
-2A

I won't get too much into detail of the frames of each move, but most of these tools are safe and lead to good/great damage.

Again, what?-
We all know that if Asta launches you by the wall with meter, then you won't be getting up, but in landing that sort of combo, Asta almost always risks death in the process.
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Synraii, I like you, man. However, I suggest doing a little bit more homework on Astaroth before discussing his tier placement. It is early in the game still, yes. But you're saying some faulty information. Oh, and to clear the air again-
Comparing Astaroth(SCV) to Astaroth(SCIV) has zero relation to his tier placement in Soul Calibur V.

For everyone else, I'll give a brief highlight as to why I feel Astaroth is in B-Tier...

Pros:
-His mid-long range tools/spacing tools, are some of the best in the game.
-His movment (mainly backdash) is good. Greatly complimented by 'reason above'
-Best grab game
-Great RO game
-Great "guard burst" game
-Very high damage
-Versatile Meter use

Cons:
-Still slow/risky in close range
-Mediocre lows
-Moderately unsafe
-Below-average punishment
-CE being duckable on reaction
 
Sorry to but in but since zwei is a new character I would expect his design to be more based on the new mechanics in this game like JG and Qstep. Yeah I know that all characters are based on the new mechanics. Zwei is completely new though.

I'm not wording this correctly lol

I was messing with him recently, only a little.
EX: 4(A) I believe that's the one. The second hit is steppable but an empty 4A is hard to tell between the held version. You can react to it but you have to focus very well. I haven't tested it but if they try to duck 1(B) zwei is relatively safe. If you conditionsm with the held version you can get away with 1B the sane can be said if.you condition them to step 4(A), (B) and duck (A). He is also difficult to JG because of this. If they fail a JG its in.your favor. He alot of.delays that bait GIs too.

Ugh mY phone is going to die. I will revise this
 
Xeph said:
Astaroth's FC 3K is also Bullrush.
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I'm an Alpha main and this move is both slower to come out in general mixup ad I surely need not remind you of the punishment you risk?

Xeph said:
One more thing, I'm confused on this part of your paragraph-
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I meant when in a forced throw/mid situation, I'll take the mid any day of the week: Bullrush would make me stand rather than crouch beacuse post KND its oki just lead to more mixups in IV and I'm not Malek - I couldn't step that shit at point blank, haha. Basically, in V, on hit I have to deal with heavy frame advantage on a safe move, KND on an unsafe move, in IV I had to deal with KND + wakeup on a safe move that had bitch tracking. =/

Xeph said:
Haha, uhm, yeah... Astaroth has always been slow, close range. In SCV he has 4B, 6A, 2k, 6k, 4K ,3K series and 66K or FC 3K can be added as well. In SCIV he had the exact same tools. I fail to see where your comparison was going. Bottom line, Astaroth has always been slow close range.
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Yes, but again, I'm an Alpha main: how many of those tools are safe on block? If I have meter, none of them. Risk/reward seems much lower than it was before.

Xeph said:
You also forget that in CLOSE range (and MID range, too) Astaroth has the best grabs in the game. This is including his low grabs, and air grabs (more so his A+G air throw). I've stated, several times since release, Astaroth's grabs should be used more so to scare people from rushing, or implemented at tip range.
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I don't doubt his throw game, but that's not what I'm getting at, my issue is with his other tools.

Xeph said:
What? Risk death? I didn't know that characters had WR moves that deal 240DMG.
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My main can do 120 meterless as throw whiff punishment.

Xeph said:
Why is this different for Astaroth in a negative way compared to the rest of the cast?
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Because Astaroth is dependant on at least one sucessful throw/round which means you will be pressuring with them more readily than many other characters.

Xeph said:
Synraii, I like you, man. However, I suggest doing a little bit more homework on Astaroth before discussing his tier placement.
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It is too early to discuss tiers based on toolset and results, especially with patches to come, I was discussing how I rate him from the perspective of an Alpha player, which is a tough matchup for Asty anyway, so my opinion of him is just naturally lower than most. =/

My issue with Astaroth in this game is that his pressure mixups should be throw/safe mid, which from my perspective is not the case a lot of the time and his mid range spacing tools, while I'm sure are legit just don't feel as dominent as they did in IV. Hell, I feel NM has a better mid-long range spacing game myself... And this doesn't mean I necessarily see him as weak, I just see Cervantes as a more rounded and better character overall, which in this build I don't feel unfair to say.

I know I keep comparing it to IV and for the moment I can't help that, SCV simply hasn't been out long enough yet.

If its any consolation, as Jag will testify, I am still free to Astaroth as a player, heh.
 
Azazel said:
SCIV sux BIG TIME! the worst in the saga. I miss SCII and III, now those were epic.
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SC4 was the most boring one imo. Stupid system (critical finish) and cuts everywhere (no advance/retreat guard, soul charge, WL moves), boring music and stages. Even SC3 was more fun imo despite the bugs and terrible balance. SC5 may not have the character complexity of previous games but at least the system makes the game super fun. I love it.
 
Ring said:
SC4 was the most boring one imo. Stupid system (critical finish) and cuts everywhere (no advance/retreat guard, soul charge, WL moves), boring music and stages. Even SC3 was more fun imo despite the bugs and terrible balance. SC5 may not have the character complexity of previous games but at least the system makes the game super fun. I love it.
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couldn't say it better my self.
 
Synraii said:
I'm an Alpha main and this move is both slower to come out in general mixup ad I surely need not remind you of the punishment you risk?
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Yes, Alpha Patroklos can punish FC 3K. As can other characters, off the top, Pyrrha, Natsu, Yoshimitsu, Leixia, Cervantes, and whoever else has a i12 move. Though, the pushback is great to be out of an AA's range so, situationally. I don't see how this is relevant, though. What does you maining aPat, and being able to punish Astaroth's FC 3K, have anything to with Astaroth's tier placement? It's one match-up. lol

Yes, but again, I'm an Alpha main: how many of those tools are safe on block? If I have meter, none of them. Risk/reward seems much lower than it was before.
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Twice?

I don't doubt his throw game, but that's not what I'm getting at, my issue is with his other tools.
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What other tools? The one's I mentioned earlier? The one's that are used at MID range, for spacing/Ring posistioning/control?

My main can do 120 meterless as throw whiff punishment.
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Because Astaroth is dependant on at least one sucessful throw/round which means you will be pressuring with them more readily than many other characters.
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We'll just have to play. Your theory fighter is showing.

It is too early to discuss tiers based on toolset and results, especially with patches to come, I was discussing how I rate him from the perspective of an Alpha player, which is a tough matchup for Asty anyway, so my opinion of him is just naturally lower than most. =/
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Then you judge Astaroth with bias ignorance. Your say towards his tier placement shouldn't be accounted for.


My issue with Astaroth in this game is that his pressure mixups should be throw/safe mid, which from my perspective is not the case a lot of the time and his mid range spacing tools, while I'm sure are legit just don't feel as dominent as they did in IV. Hell, I feel NM has a better mid-long range spacing game myself...
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So you're telling me that Astaroth's mid range tools are better from IV than in V? Again, more ignorance. It's not so much the change of properties in the tools- it's the engine of this game that makes Astaroth able to space/control space. Comparing IV and V is, yes, STILL irrelevant.

. And this doesn't mean I necessarily see him as weak, I just see Cervantes as a more rounded and better character overall, which in this build I don't feel unfair to say.
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Well, I did put Cervantes the first in B-tier, right underneath A-tier. Astaroth is under him, in B-Tier. Top of B-Tier is not that far from A-Tier. Did you not see?

I know I keep comparing it to IV and for the moment I can't help that, SCV simply hasn't been out long enough yet.
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It's not that difficult when you've actually used/researched said character.

EDIT:
Sakura Twister
 
Ok I'm going to post my opinionated tier from what I've seen so far.

Top Tier A CLASS:
Alpha Patrokolos (From what I read and what I've seen everyone agrees that aPat is the best fighter in the game no argument here.)
Mitsurugi (Fast, safe and well rounded. One of the best fighters in the game.)
Natsu (Fast, lots of pressure, tons of potential damage. Very good fighter.)
Pyrrha (The Sophitia of SCV great punishing moves, well balanced.)
Cervantes (I know I'm going to get heat for putting him on top tier, but I just think he's a hell of a strong character and he can hang with the big boys.)

High Mid Tier B CLASS:
Patrokolos (Great fighter, great set of moves, all around well balanced. Good damage, good speed, no gimmicks.)
Astoroth (Astoroth is a monster in the right hands. Does a shit load of damage. Bad speed but makes up for it with range and awesome damage.)
Nightmare (This guy is fucking fast for holding a giant sword. He has excellent damage and his wall combos are the best in the game. He could send you from the middle of a room into a wall and combo the shit out of you. Great mixups.)
Tira (She has come a long since Soul Calibur 4. A lot more balanced and faster. Great fighter.)
Leixia (Everyone remembers how annoying Xiangua was in Soul Calibur 4. This is her her counterpart. She's fast, she's safe, she's tricky. She's good.)
Algol (Bubbles. Nuff said.)
Omega Pyrrha

Mid Mid Tier C CLASS:
Maxi (Decent fighter. Big ups in damage put still has same problems from Soul Calibur 4. His damage is what makes him a beast)
Yoshimitsu (Unorthodox fighter, a lot of wierd moves, tends to throw people off. Large moveset, good damage, well balanced.)
Hilde (This is what she shouldve been like she was too overpowered in SC4. Best Critcal Edge move. Thumbs up.)
Xiba (Deadly in the right hands. Xiba has great combos and mixups and he's much faster than Kilik. Plus he has a tail.)
Voldo (Possibly the best gauge damage. Great moveset, good low mid mixups. Good frames.)
Ivy (Still a great character although she's much less powerful than SC4.)
Ezio (Decent character. Not really much to work with. Kind of gimmicky. Kind of slow. Has potential.)
Viola (Fast, good combos, kind of low damage. Has orb to attack with.)

Mid Low Tier D CLASS:
Raphael (About as bad as he was in Soul Calibur 4 maybe worse. He has a few welcome buffs. Best combination speed and range in the game. Good pokes. Bad damage, decent frames. He is a decent character with potential but always falls short of greatness.)
Siegfried (Slow ass hell, bad frames. Good damage, good combos, he's just too slow.)

Low Tier F TIER FAIL CLASS: These guys are just terrible. Nothing else must be said.
AEON
ZWEI
DAMPIERRE

Unknown: Devil Jinn: (Who the fuck is this guy?)

What do you guys thinks? Do you agree?
 
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