SCV Yoshimitsu Q&A and General Discussion

Frostheart said:
How did you fare against shenyuan's sieg last time? He has this aoe of doom around him that I couldn't close in without difficulty except iFC 3K. WS B is too good lol
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I lost to him in the pre-evo tournament, then we did a FT3 after and he narrowly beat me, then we played more and started just destroying me. He had countermeasures for Yoshi v. Sieg tricks before I even mastered them. I seem to have trouble in matchups where it's not a good idea to take big risks, like Pat, Pyrrha, Siegfried and Viola.

Siegfried might be Yoshi's worst matchup. I don't really have a good answer to Shen Yuan's 3(B) to backstep. Best I can come up with is step like twice so he doesn't somehow realign using the backstep or forward step, and to beat SCH A, block and launch or AA, and to beat SCH AA, step-in, block the first A, and immediately A+K, which leaves you at +16 for CE if you're close enough. React to everything else he does... backstep if you're pushed back really far.

"What if he does this" is welcome :)

I might as well go over countermeasures for Shen Yuan and others' silly 1K setups. 2B beats 1K-1K and 1K-backstep unless the 1K is spaced on tip. 3A beats everything except backstep and 1K-1K. CH confirm for the launch. Both beat 1K WR B. 3A also beats step and does not activate Sieg's horizontal aGIs.

To get in, step-in and JGG. Tight keepout requires predictable timing. JG a 3B and launch into the UB setup.

Last tip: 214A will sidestep 3B at -7 or better.
 
Haha yeah, on a good day I'm like 6-13 against him, on a bad day it's like 2-15. Wtf! Against WS B I was thinking run up JG? He played me and futurestarmk2 (the taiwan dude who now uses Viola and has some godly Viola tech on YT, go check it out) for matchup before he went to EVO haha. Ehhh I think backstep isn't the best idea against Sieg, I get caught out so much at tip range. Sidestep, block, sidestep, block seems to be the way to go (with agA fear in mind though). Btw you can A+K SCH AA 2nd hit. (wtf I totally missed that part in your post lol!)

Matchup-wise, I think 6:4 to Sieg? I don't think it's that bad except for spacing where he tops NM by far, and you can't be too oki happy due to WS B. On second thoughts maybe it is; I'm also scared of both Pyrrhas and Aeon (just because 66A is a horrible move). Why Viola?
 
Frostheart said:
Ehhh I think backstep isn't the best idea against Sieg, I get caught out so much at tip range. Sidestep, block, sidestep, block seems to be the way to go (with agA fear in mind though).
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Well of course you gotta know when you can. I was really talking about spaced 3B or WR B.
Why Viola?
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Partly personal because I'm impatient and take big risks, which is a bad idea against Viola. Also it kinda sucks to be close to Viola, where Yoshi usually wants to be (or at least I want to be). But against decent Viola players I've had a lot of success just spacing her with 2B and step-2Bs and baiting whiffs and being on-point with 3B whiff punishes.
 
Signia said:
I lost to him in the pre-evo tournament, then we did a FT3 after and he narrowly beat me, then we played more and started just destroying me. He had countermeasures for Yoshi v. Sieg tricks before I even mastered them. I seem to have trouble in matchups where it's not a good idea to take big risks, like Pat, Pyrrha, Siegfried and Viola.

Siegfried might be Yoshi's worst matchup. I don't really have a good answer to Shen Yuan's 3(B) to backstep. Best I can come up with is step like twice so he doesn't somehow realign using the backstep or forward step, and to beat SCH A, block and launch or AA, and to beat SCH AA, step-in, block the first A, and immediately A+K, which leaves you at +16 for CE if you're close enough. React to everything else he does... backstep if you're pushed back really far.

"What if he does this" is welcome :)

I might as well go over countermeasures for Shen Yuan and others' silly 1K setups. 2B beats 1K-1K and 1K-backstep unless the 1K is spaced on tip. 3A beats everything except backstep and 1K-1K. CH confirm for the launch. Both beat 1K WR B. 3A also beats step and does not activate Sieg's horizontal aGIs.

To get in, step-in and JGG. Tight keepout requires predictable timing. JG a 3B and launch into the UB setup.

Last tip: 214A will sidestep 3B at -7 or better.
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A perfect (essentially quick step version) of 33B will beat out anything Siegfried can use in Chief. Be aware that he can use SCH's 6 to bait a whiff though. The same principle applies to 11B as well, but you get way less reward. This general mind game is much more beneficial to Yoshi than it is to Siegfried. Otherwise, I do agree that Sieg is one of Yoshi's worst matchups.
 
mkl said:
A perfect (essentially quick step version) of 33B will beat out anything Siegfried can use in Chief. Be aware that he can use SCH's 6 to bait a whiff though. The same principle applies to 11B as well, but you get way less reward. This general mind game is much more beneficial to Yoshi than it is to Siegfried. Otherwise, I do agree that Sieg is one of Yoshi's worst matchups.
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Well SCH movement is what I'm worried about. Sounds crazy right? SCH 4 will backstep 33B.
 
Signia said:
Well SCH movement is what I'm worried about. Sounds crazy right? SCH 4 will backstep 33B.
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Yeah, it becomes a mind game that is in your favor. Eventually he'll be hesitant to throw it out at will since it's a launch most times with 33B or step forward 3B (or CE if you are really confident in your evasion yomi) which will lead to Yoshi's most damaging setups. If you guess wrong, he does get decent damage, but if you catch him being retarded a few times he'll start to look for other ways to start his offense.

I want to take this opportunity to say that 66K is one of Yoshi's most criminally underrated moves in SCV. Use it.
 
mkl said:
Yeah, it becomes a mind game that is in your favor. Eventually he'll be hesitant to throw it out at will since it's a launch most times with 33B or step forward 3B (or CE if you are really confident in your evasion yomi) which will lead to Yoshi's most damaging setups. If you guess wrong, he does get decent damage, but if you catch him being retarded a few times he'll start to look for other ways to start his offense.

I want to take this opportunity to say that 66K is one of Yoshi's most criminally underrated moves in SCV. Use it.
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The thing I don't like about those options is the risk of eating SCH B. Step-in 3B risks big CHs. Not to mention SCH B's ridiculous clean hit damage. Oh and it leads to powerful tech traps and combos into 3B or CE. High risk high reward for both options.

The way I laid it out:

Step: beats everything but SCH A.
-Step something? You get a launch.
-You're wrong? Eat SCH A or SCH AA.
low risk, high reward

Step-in G and react:
-Block SCH K? 6K or CE interrupts another SCH K.
-Block SCH K BE? Step second hit, launch.
-Block SCH A? Guess whether or not the second hit is coming. A+K CE for SCH AA and AA if they SSH K and 3B if he does anything else.
-You're wrong? You blocked SCH B.
low risk, mid-high reward

So those options seem unnecessarily risky. Of course, unless your opponent can prove they execute the SCH step K, the 214A or 33B counter (not that easy), you should continue to use those options.


About 66K, when should you use this?
 
Signia said:
About 66K, when should you use this?
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Pros:
"Meaty" hitbox that can catch sidesteps early in the animation.
-10 on block, KND on hit for oki.
Almost immediate TJ.
Awesome gap closer.
i17.

Cons:
A high vertical, albeit not a reactable one.

It's one of his most reliable "get in" moves in my experience. You can also get out of some stupid mid/low mixups by mashing it out and come out either on top, or relatively unscathed from being hit in the air, hit them before their step completes, or get stepped and die. I haven't really used the 33_99 versions of it, but I am genuinely curious if they have any advantages like 33_99B does.
 
In my scrubby opinion, it can kinda pressure someone with it. I mean, why not try using this or 33_99K sparingly to get close? Yoshi likes to be close for that CH imcf. A scenario like GI-ing Violas choice of attack then 66King her to a wall makes me smirk. Wall combo time!!!
 
I use 66K on block to set up 214A ( for some reason people A,A all day after this move ) or when I think they will try to low poke me back after 2K. Thats about it.
 
mkl said:
Cons:
A high vertical, albeit not a reactable one.
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Uh

It's a mid, as I thought

But it still sucks, and now I'm going to spend half an hour explaining why.

Why? Lots of reasons:
-it is a safe ringout move and walls splats further than the usual options. On block it pushes back very far and Yoshi stays in front of them. Perfect for this:

RedDjinn said:
I use 66K on block to set up 214A ( for some reason people A,A all day after this move ) or when I think they will try to low poke me back after 2K. Thats about it.
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Buuut if it gets stepped (which they will want to do), it causes an almost complete position change, which can lead to you getting rung out or wallsplatted. I've thrown away too many rounds to this. Doing this when you're not by the edge? Just use a different, more useful mid as part of your mixup and transition your wrong guesses into reverse-mixup moves like 214A. Never do something only to set up for the reverse mixup.

-it does NOT TJ almost instantly, it's airborne at i9. For reference: 9K, 8A, and 9B all TJ at i3 and 8B+K TJs at i10. I prefer 8K if I need fast KND TJs (and good tracking), 9B if they can and do punish that, and 8B+KK for post-2K or low disadvantage tech jumps.

-it gets you in on block but in a bad way. You're at -10 up-close. 214A will evade less mids than usual, the only TJ move that will TJ a 2A is 7_8_9 A_B_K, and you can't sidestep fast linears. Immediate throws will reach you and interrupt you (you can't even backstep a throw XD). It's the worst position you can be in without being punishable except by Natsu.

-A+K hit will reach now but that'll only start frame traps that trade with i18. Who's gonna swing at you with something that's i19 when they're right in your face? Idk, maybe they'll want to do a tracking mid to stop your 214A, not that they have to. But you can get thrown here, which is the obvious choice at up-close +10.

-its range sucks. It can backstepped even you land a 2A and follow with it. 3B has more range.

+I've discovered that 66K's multiple hit frames makes its disadvantage on block variable. Lowest I've gotten it to be is -7. A reliable way to do this is to get them to block it late when they get up. If you like using this move, learn to recognize a late 66K and you have an ok iMCF setup ready (but not really... remember what I said about spacing and iMCF setups beyond -4...). If you wanna mess with someone like kAb who knows every i10 punish, this would be a hilariously awesome setup. Good luck intentionally setting it up though! Oh yeah and A+K will actually frame trap some stuff now.

+Its aesthetics are nice. KNEE OF JUSTICE!

How could you even think of using this move thinking it's a high?? It feels natural to run in and do this move, but run in and do 33B instead! Or do whatever you want. I know Pocky DGAF.
 
Signia said:
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It didn't seem like a high, but I was reading the wiki and noticed I had punched it in as such for some reason on there.

The main reason I like this move is the range. I'm really curious on why you think 3B has equal range. If that's true that would make 66K a bit useless in my eyes. I really doubt that most of the cast could backstep 66K after a connecting 2A though. Maybe a few, but no way in hell most of the cast. Especially with how many active frames the hitbox has. I'm going to test some of his move ranges in a sec.
 
Meh I don't use 66K alot but i do once in a blue moon...just because it looks badass to me when yoshi lands a hit with it....now has anyoneeeeeeeeeee or rather...think A+K has a use? even for high level play? I think A+k is shit especially when trying to make his tekken moves viable. A friend told me a yoshi player on XBL thinks A+K and his tekken moves are viable in high level play, so I challenged him=o we haven't played yet but i wanna see if he can really land A+K on me 3 times.....(doubt it).
 
Oh looks like I missed the whole 66K argument thing, but 9K is so much better except with less RO. Never knew it has multi-hit properties lol. A+K is a character-specific counter e.g. vs Cerv. 4B BE mixup, REM etc. Also, against Yoshi's SDGF, if you try to JG the B but he uses A instead, you still have quite a bit of time to hit A+K. On the subject of TJ, at i6 B+K has faster TJ frames than 8B+K (and sets you up for a 84 dmg FLE K>DGF A+B whiff punish)
 
mkl said:
It didn't seem like a high, but I was reading the wiki and noticed I had punched it in as such for some reason on there.

The main reason I like this move is the range. I'm really curious on why you think 3B has equal range. If that's true that would make 66K a bit useless in my eyes. I really doubt that most of the cast could backstep 66K after a connecting 2A though. Maybe a few, but no way in hell most of the cast. Especially with how many active frames the hitbox has. I'm going to test some of his move ranges in a sec.
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Well I've messed up with the ranges in the past. Remember when I thought 66B had almost the same range as 4K?

RedDjinn said:
LOL signia and his write ups! :P
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I'm turning into Slayer64 from the Siegfried board :(
 
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