SCV Yoshimitsu Q&A and General Discussion
- Thread starter HajimeOwari
- Start date
Slade
[14] Master
Well, considering it's all highs, they can't be hit by it if they're crouching, so...
It does jail on block if I'm not mistaken, however.
Ringout
[09] Warrior
4aaaaa series is in my opinion one of Yoshis best Psedo mix ups. At -9 once you lock someone in with it, whether they are blocking, being hit, counter hit, etc. Your opponent will have to guess when its going to end no matter what. The fact it has a quick start up, catches step, and has optional times to stop its transition gives it such a great chance to 'force' a frame trap from this move with iMcf. -9 normally isn't to great, but because people are always stuck wondering when you're going to stop that -9 then ranges from anywhere to -7 to -1.
The mix ups afterwards are usually iMcf. But you have other alternatives depending on what you decide to do. Two others I prefer are either 214A, or A+K. Because you're character is so close to theirs after stopping it, if they step or attack anywhere near you, A+K will just crumple them immediately. Whereas 214A has a similar result where as because your character is so close to theirs you'll find yourself ducking lows, and verticals because their next attack pushes Yoshi to their right.
If you can get the just frame series going for this move it makes it by far one of his best tools if you do get the chance to recover. Leads to insane damage combos, high launcher for ringouts that don't wall splat and will simply put people over any wall. You can DNK +3b someone afterwards and add more damage if you recover as well. Imcf is a 1 frame window to nail after you hit someone with it after you recover. People also tend to assume that a guard crush always means you're going to be + frames after it, but its still the same data -9(maybe 8ish) so you can keep up pressure after its blocked if you wanted.
Its rare that someone will crouch this move properly, because almost everyone will then recover to standing and get jailed into blocking the rest of it.
So many good things to say about this move..
The mix ups afterwards are usually iMcf. But you have other alternatives depending on what you decide to do. Two others I prefer are either 214A, or A+K. Because you're character is so close to theirs after stopping it, if they step or attack anywhere near you, A+K will just crumple them immediately. Whereas 214A has a similar result where as because your character is so close to theirs you'll find yourself ducking lows, and verticals because their next attack pushes Yoshi to their right.
If you can get the just frame series going for this move it makes it by far one of his best tools if you do get the chance to recover. Leads to insane damage combos, high launcher for ringouts that don't wall splat and will simply put people over any wall. You can DNK +3b someone afterwards and add more damage if you recover as well. Imcf is a 1 frame window to nail after you hit someone with it after you recover. People also tend to assume that a guard crush always means you're going to be + frames after it, but its still the same data -9(maybe 8ish) so you can keep up pressure after its blocked if you wanted.
Its rare that someone will crouch this move properly, because almost everyone will then recover to standing and get jailed into blocking the rest of it.
So many good things to say about this move..
Signia
[13] Hero
4A series is way better in SCV than in SCIV since in SCV it's positive on hit. You used to be able to mash 2A or something and eventually be able to interrupt. Some people still have this habit and will eat iMCF all day.
For the CH combo with the JFs, the first hit has to be CH; if any other one is the first hit in the string, then they'll be able to block the last hit. DNK followup requires a slight delay, iirc. If you can land the iMCF followup you can get massive ringout range with this combo: 4A
AA iMCF RCC 3B 4AAA (repeat if possible/necessary). When you launch them, they'll be backturned, so you have to do another 4A JF series in order to extend the ringout distance. This requires some luck and crazy execution and you have other ringout options, so I wouldn't bother too much with this (I pulled it off in tournament once though!). If you don't need to extend the ringout distance, do the 6B+KBBB (DNK) followup instead.
The real reason to use 4As outside of a combo is the mixups that Ringout was talking about. Another thing to note is the pushback that can lead players closer to a wall or edge. You can also use it at mid-range to get closer somewhat safely, since the string mixup is there even on whiff, though if the opponent is smart they can duck if they see you spinning. Your other gap-closer, iFC3K, also may cause premptive ducking so mixup with 2B or whatever.
In juggles, the 4A JF series is only strictly better than other followups when you need to ringout over a wall. You can really surprise people with ringout distance get with this -- people don't expect to get rung out over a short wall that's 1/3 of the stage away. You don't even have to get a lucky recovery, so there's no reason not do this when you have the opportunity.
Against certain players, doing the 4A JF series and hoping for a recovery might be the best risk/reward followup if the opponent can deal with the a:B+K setups really well. If you're just going for damage, do a 6K if you get a recovery, it's not worth trying to continue with more 4A JFs.
For the CH combo with the JFs, the first hit has to be CH; if any other one is the first hit in the string, then they'll be able to block the last hit. DNK followup requires a slight delay, iirc. If you can land the iMCF followup you can get massive ringout range with this combo: 4A
AA iMCF RCC 3B 4AAA (repeat if possible/necessary). When you launch them, they'll be backturned, so you have to do another 4A JF series in order to extend the ringout distance. This requires some luck and crazy execution and you have other ringout options, so I wouldn't bother too much with this (I pulled it off in tournament once though!). If you don't need to extend the ringout distance, do the 6B+KBBB (DNK) followup instead.The real reason to use 4As outside of a combo is the mixups that Ringout was talking about. Another thing to note is the pushback that can lead players closer to a wall or edge. You can also use it at mid-range to get closer somewhat safely, since the string mixup is there even on whiff, though if the opponent is smart they can duck if they see you spinning. Your other gap-closer, iFC3K, also may cause premptive ducking so mixup with 2B or whatever.
In juggles, the 4A JF series is only strictly better than other followups when you need to ringout over a wall. You can really surprise people with ringout distance get with this -- people don't expect to get rung out over a short wall that's 1/3 of the stage away. You don't even have to get a lucky recovery, so there's no reason not do this when you have the opportunity.
Against certain players, doing the 4A JF series and hoping for a recovery might be the best risk/reward followup if the opponent can deal with the a:B+K setups really well. If you're just going for damage, do a 6K if you get a recovery, it's not worth trying to continue with more 4A JFs.
- Moderator
- #905
mkl
[00] Signia's Cheerleader
About the podcast and deleted posts:
Xiang asked me to do the podcast originally. I immediately wrote up concise notes and little extra tidbits to adlib off of. A day or two after that, I decided it might be better to invite another Yoshi on to describe how he plays the character differently than I do and riff off of where we differ creatively. My idea of bringing Ringout on with me to describe his alternate views on how to play the character obviously backfired in the fact neither of us could really agree on anything (even fundamental facts). It made us both sound uninformed and didn't do justice to Yoshimitsu in podcast form. Signia was right to highlight that point. I will not, however, allow him to go from forum to forum to complain essentially about not being picked for the podcast himself.
Xiang asked me to do the podcast originally. I immediately wrote up concise notes and little extra tidbits to adlib off of. A day or two after that, I decided it might be better to invite another Yoshi on to describe how he plays the character differently than I do and riff off of where we differ creatively. My idea of bringing Ringout on with me to describe his alternate views on how to play the character obviously backfired in the fact neither of us could really agree on anything (even fundamental facts). It made us both sound uninformed and didn't do justice to Yoshimitsu in podcast form. Signia was right to highlight that point. I will not, however, allow him to go from forum to forum to complain essentially about not being picked for the podcast himself.
TsunamiBye
[14] Master
Do what you can guys. What matters is everyone will play a different Yoshi so we have to embrace that. Rather than make many disagreements, I'd rather just contribute your styles. Some like aggressive with flash, some like it practical, and so on. Imho, I'd rather see the different Yoshi styles contribute many ideas we shall give to our Yoshi fans.
How they make Yoshi look lethal is up to them. Just my humble opinion.
How they make Yoshi look lethal is up to them. Just my humble opinion.
Xyerith
SPHERECUCK
Hello comrades of the Yoshi SA, I came here to tell you that My notes on Yoshi's Frame data is almost complete and I complete my schooling next week, you guys should expect the frame data to be done completely by, to which I will update the wiki for all to see.
- Moderator
- #908
mkl
[00] Signia's Cheerleader
Signia 3-0'd his entire way to grand finals pretty much destroying everyone he faced. I am curious to see what Clash (Ivy or Viola??) did to stop his run because he looked locked in as fuck from the pools stream. Congrats to the highest placing of Yoshi at a major so far, at EVO even.
Signia
[13] Hero
I destroyed top 8 winners bracket KrayzieCD and Manta as well, and I didn't lose a single match until grand finals. I was really scared of every opponent I fought (Fuudo, Juece (yes even Juece almost took a match off of me), Thermidor, Zane, KrayzieCD, Manta) but for whatever reason they didn't seem to play their best against me. My twitchy movement, iMCF pressure, JG punishes and bold iFC3K spamming trips people up I guess. Weird that I start thinking I suck and then I start winning.
I lost most of my rounds from getting hit by 44A BE. Over and over I made mistakes which became huge blunders when considering Viola's RO ability and damage. I had a really good read on him and had no worries about losing to him until the bracket reset. KC played really well by the edge, whereas most players are either locked down or RO'd before long. My ring positioning often was turned against me, as a 44A BE combo allows Viola to reposition during some of the hits. That and the RO distance allows her RO from almost any angle, especially on a curved ring edge.
Other than that, I kept getting hit by 44A BE in unforced errors. Like, he'd a drop a combo and then do another 44A BE. I had 10 matches to get my shit together but I couldn't stop getting tagged by it. There's a bunch of anti-Viola tech like stepping right after 44A BE or GIing 4B+K that I just forgot about or failed executing it. His combos were disgusting but there should be a way for me to avoid getting hit by that move entirely.
Edit: nevermind, after thinking about it there's really no way, unless I want to stop grabbing. iFC3K can be punished by 44A BE but KC didn't know that.
I lost most of my rounds from getting hit by 44A BE. Over and over I made mistakes which became huge blunders when considering Viola's RO ability and damage. I had a really good read on him and had no worries about losing to him until the bracket reset. KC played really well by the edge, whereas most players are either locked down or RO'd before long. My ring positioning often was turned against me, as a 44A BE combo allows Viola to reposition during some of the hits. That and the RO distance allows her RO from almost any angle, especially on a curved ring edge.
Other than that, I kept getting hit by 44A BE in unforced errors. Like, he'd a drop a combo and then do another 44A BE. I had 10 matches to get my shit together but I couldn't stop getting tagged by it. There's a bunch of anti-Viola tech like stepping right after 44A BE or GIing 4B+K that I just forgot about or failed executing it. His combos were disgusting but there should be a way for me to avoid getting hit by that move entirely.
Edit: nevermind, after thinking about it there's really no way, unless I want to stop grabbing. iFC3K can be punished by 44A BE but KC didn't know that.
TsunamiBye
[14] Master
Regardless, us Yoshis can still hold our heads up high. Thanks for showing peeps the power of Yoshi. Soon, he will win a major and we will chant Namu Namu Namu Namu Namu Namu Namu Namu NamuNamu Namu Namu Namu Namu NamuNamu Namu Namu.
rudeb0y
[10] Knight
I'm interested in learning how to move like that Signia. Does it take much practice? I can do all the moves right hand no problem but after watching EVO and playing others that seem to be able to step everything, I feel my movement lets me down a lot. Also a stick player, actually felt like changing to pad for a while as I think that would be better for movement but at the cost of iMCF and a:B+K performance
OneManjiArmy
[10] Knight
Signia. All i gotta say.
I'm motivated again
I'm motivated again
Signia
[13] Hero
I use stick as well. The key to movement like that is knowing what movements cancel into what, and understanding the difference and limitations between single tap movement and double tap/held down movement.
Forward Movement: Forward tap dash can be cancelled into anything and is very fast for a short burst of movement, though has a short delay before you start moving. For most characters, this is the fastest way to move forward a short distance, though for really short distances, double tapping is better since it has no delay that I can see. The faster you tap the better, though. Single tap can be buffered, while double tap cannot. So the fastest way to do something like grab them again after Yoshi's life drain grab is to carefully time the double tap dash after the animation ends. I prefer to do single tap, since it's easy to cancel into attacks or other movements, unlike forward dash, which puts you in the 8WR state.
Side Movement: There are actually three different sidesteps: sidewalking (held direction), quick step, and single tap step. Sidewalking is the slowest and the least evading but after 10 frames you're free to guard, so this is the safest side movement. Quick step is the most evading but is the hardest to do on reaction or with specific timing. Single tap step can be buffered and easily cancelled into other buffered attacks without entering the 8WR state unless you do a move that has the same direction as the step. Tap steps can be cancelled into dashes and backdashes.
Back Movement: Backwalking sucks and you should never do it unless you want to move backward for more than 20 frames and still be able to guard on reaction to things. The backwalk, started quickly with 44, actually has a recovery that's even longer than the 20 frame recovery of the backdash (tap 4). Backdash is usually the way to go, and it can be cancelled into a forward dash or sidestep.
So it's possible to do stuff like 8 68 68 68, cancelling tap sidesteps into forward dashes so you can then cancel into another sidestep. Or backstep-sidestep to backstep short range things and slow linear attacks. Or backstep, cancel into a sidestep you can cancel into another backstep (4 214 214 like tekken). Or go back and forth like a madman by tapping 6 and 4 at specific timings. Especially with Yoshi, if you practice movement you'll be flying in no time. With movement, space effectively and remember to throw in some JGs into your forward dashes.
MONEYMUFFINS
[13] Hero
LOOKS LIKE SIGNIA SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO GO FROM FORUM TO FORUM TO COMPLAIN, AFTER ALL.
YOU'RE TRASH.
Signia
[13] Hero
So anyway, FC K does 4 more damage than 2K. That's a pretty big deal in my book, turns yoshi's weak ass 2K into a normal 2K, complete with a different sound effect. 2K is 12 damage and FC K is 16.
AvDaniel
[09] Warrior
Same frames as well, other than being one frame faster. Good find, although I can't really find a use for his 2K.
I figured it'd be good for following up FC 3K for those who aren't very used to RCC but FC B does more damage anyway.
Any ideas?
Signia
[13] Hero
2K is still much faster than FC K from standing, so where the speed matters, 2K is a better choice.
Unless you're asking about use of the low kick in general... 2K is a fairly safe low that hits rollers and sets up his iMCF. It even beats 2A if you time it well enough, but if you're not confident you can beat it with backstep or 9K or 8B+K. If you train hard you can make 2K/FC K a really threatening part of your offense. After hitting, they're forced into a decision in order to beat iMCF, iFC3K, and 6B (combos into 6K on most characters/tech jumps). It's almost the same as iMCF on block.
Defiance-K
[09] Warrior
I recently started to play again and I need some advice.
I'm finding myself getting my guard heavily damaged many times and I can't seem to get my opponents to flash red often. I'm making wrong guesses and my opponents read me rather easily. In a vast majority of my matches I will flash yellow and probably in more than 50% of them my guard breaks. In a small number of games I will have my opponent flash yellow, and breaking their guard is a rare occurrence.
I also lose momentum rather quickly. My "flow" is incredibly lacking in many cases, if it exists at all. I can't get my opponents to start playing irrationally and I seem to be the one playing on tilt.
More practice is in order, but it's rather frustrating to not make correct reads and fall into bad habits.
Any help/advice is greatly appreciated.
I'm finding myself getting my guard heavily damaged many times and I can't seem to get my opponents to flash red often. I'm making wrong guesses and my opponents read me rather easily. In a vast majority of my matches I will flash yellow and probably in more than 50% of them my guard breaks. In a small number of games I will have my opponent flash yellow, and breaking their guard is a rare occurrence.
I also lose momentum rather quickly. My "flow" is incredibly lacking in many cases, if it exists at all. I can't get my opponents to start playing irrationally and I seem to be the one playing on tilt.
More practice is in order, but it's rather frustrating to not make correct reads and fall into bad habits.
Any help/advice is greatly appreciated.
AvDaniel
[09] Warrior
I'm by no means a Yoshimitsu expert (just kidding I'm the best) but I've found 7_8_9K to be a very good "panic button" for Yoshi. Safe on block, tech jump (which sort of eliminates all mixup because obviously it avoids lows, and combos tend to get ruined by the jumping state). On hit (even NH) it's a knockdown, and gives you perfect distance for 8A+B2 > 66A+B.
All in all it'd seem that there's very little risk in using it even at -, and the reward for landing it could potentially be quite huge. (around 1/3 health or more I believe - and after the techtrap the enemy still has to deal with Yoshimitsu's kinda scary okizeme.)
E: Just realized I didn't even get to the point of what I was trying to say. What I'm saying is JUMP KICK = GOOD
- Moderator
- #920
mkl
[00] Signia's Cheerleader
Jump K is AA punishable by quite a few characters, you just don't see it a lot since it was a safe calling card of his in SCIV.