Siegfried Q&A / General Discussion

[coth_x]

Geez, yes it even does work against the AI.

Well online isn't working for me, so its all i got at the moment.

 

[Solo]

Ah, their suffering soothes me.

 

[Heaton]

Today,

1. I had 2A+B whiff post 3A. I cried.
2. I got back grabbed out of 22A.

 

[EminentRising]

the fact that a mimic character has better/different move properties than the character she's mimicing, is total BS IMO. I thought "mimic" meant copy everything, down to the nitty gritty.

The female wannabe Sophitia mimic (whatever the fuck her name is), already has a devastating CE that hits you from ANYWHERE, why does she also need better frames than the ones she's imitating?

IMO they should ban her because of this. I'm pretty sure Olcadan in Sc3 was tourney-banned, and sc4 didn't have a mimic character.

mimics are banned. altho it doesnt state this in the sc tourny rules, every tourny i've been to has had them banned.

 

[lillekri]

Weird thing I noticed.. sometimes after 33B(CH)~SCH A,SSH AA.. I find there is a time window where I can 8WR but not attack.(at least 3B will come out as just 33) I think it happens esp. if I hit the opponent upon landing, but not entirely sure. Anyone else notice similar?

Also, after some practice, 22kA2A~3B.. is looking good. Possible to do faster than I thought in beginning.

 

[Slayer_X64]

Today,

1. I had 2A+B whiff post 3A. I cried.
2. I got back grabbed out of 22A.

i had 2A+B whiff on a raw standing opponent who wasnt moving or stepping in any way...it went right through their legs...and of course i think it was another siegfried that this happened against, just incase you were wondering character specifics.

 

[Ryoka]

mimics are banned. altho it doesnt state this in the sc tourny rules, every tourny i've been to has had them banned.

The only justifiable reason for this would have been the mimics still having a chance of copying Dampierre's style. Now that Dampierre is available to everyone this no longer applies, not that it ever applied to Elysium to begin with.

Elysium herself is a mix of unique advantages and disadvantages for the uninformed. Like her Nemesis Step B moves while copying Omega were mentioned... they have better frames and damage upfront, but cannot wall splat or RO like Omega's. Her CE, while generally very good, deals significantly reduced damage against aerial targets even in an unscaled combo so you have to work around that limitation to get the most out of it.

In general though I find the thought of banning mimics to be absurd.

 

[ChaosK]

i had 2A+B whiff on a raw standing opponent who wasnt moving or stepping in any way...it went right through their legs...and of course i think it was another siegfried that this happened against, just incase you were wondering character specifics.

It depends on the way the opponent is standing. If his legs are angled in a certain way, 2A+B will always whiff.

 

[PyroZamfir]

i had 2A+B whiff on a raw standing opponent who wasnt moving or stepping in any way...it went right through their legs...and of course i think it was another siegfried that this happened against, just incase you were wondering character specifics.

Yesterday I whiffed a 2A+B against a blocking patroklos at midrange. It was lame.

 

[EminentRising]

The only justifiable reason for this would have been the mimics still having a chance of copying Dampierre's style. Now that Dampierre is available to everyone this no longer applies, not that it ever applied to Elysium to begin with.

Elysium herself is a mix of unique advantages and disadvantages for the uninformed. Like her Nemesis Step B moves while copying Omega were mentioned... they have better frames and damage upfront, but cannot wall splat or RO like Omega's. Her CE, while generally very good, deals significantly reduced damage against aerial targets even in an unscaled combo so you have to work around that limitation to get the most out of it.

In general though I find the thought of banning mimics to be absurd.

at first i was surprised they banned mimics. u would really have to run it by the TOs and jaxel cause im not 100% sure wut the full reasoning is.

 

[ShenYuan]

Fair. My bad

All his matchups are 5-5. quite a few are better. Maybe his worst is pyrrah. but that's 5,5-4,5 at the very most.

No problems with tracking, range, damage, movement, mixup etc. Only problem is lack of safety. But then again that's where you have strategy...

Also he can play at ANY range. and this is important against projectile characters. Algol is also really good. Viola too. He can take them on. You use omega and fight viola you feel like a clown

 

[ShenChan]

*deleted*

When you actually played him before, you understand how strong this dude is. And Japanese always look horrible in videos, but alot of shit are actually going on between them. It's really educational.

 

[Heaton]

Spoiler: For ShenYuan

Anyway Sieg is top tier. Or so I think.

All his matchups are 5-5. quite a few are better. Maybe his worst is pyrrah. but that's 5,5-4,5 at the very most.

I assume that you're implying the game is extremely balanced, because the only way he could be both top tier and have exclusively 5:5 matchups is if everyone in the top tier (my tentative top tier is Cervantes, α, maybe Ω and Mitsurugi) also had exclusive 5:5 matchups.

No problems with tracking, range, damage, movement, mixup etc. Only problem is lack of safety. But then again that's where you have strategy...

His tracking is some of the worst I have ever seen. 3(B) has no tracking, SCH B has no tracking unless done from BT, SSH BBB whiffs THROUGH people, B4 does not track and also whiffs through you at certain "tip" ranges. He has pretty terrible tracking on his best moves, and compensating for this is something that you have to actively be thinking about when you're doing stuff ~ do I need to press 6 before I do SCH B post 8B+K? If I do, will I miss my punish? What if I don't need to do it and end up missing my punish? What if I do need it and end up missing my punish? These are things you have maybe 30 odd frames to figure out before you decide to press 6 or not, and whether you do or not could get YOU punished.

I've never had problems with his range. Probably top tier if you go by range alone.

The issue with damage is that he's does too little, it's that he does a paltry amount for his proportional unsafety. Ω's DNS B is safe to nearly everything in the game and gets 72 damage assuming you're just okay at the followup 4 input. Cervantes 3B is only -13 on block and opens up the door for a ton of damage on hit depending on how much meter he wants to spend. These are a few examples and I realize that the playstyle is radically different, but they can match or beat Siegfried's damage output with or without meter while being much, much safer - in this game unsafety does not mean more damage on your moves, it means you're going to be taking more damage via punishers.

His backstep is still one of the most shallow backsteps in the game. 4B+K is more or less the same distance as well, but SSH BBB steps forward into what you're trying to whiff punish, and there have been many situations where a B input 5 or 6 frames later can be the difference between too early and getting hit, and too late and getting it blocked and being at -18. The fear advantage with the whole string isn't bad, since it can effectively force people to step, but anyone with a generic CE can shut it down completely, and there are also a few "catch-all" punishment/interrupt options for it, too.

He has some alright mixups. SRSH isn't bad depending on where you do it from. But it has a lot of holes in it. For example, you can't pressure people on the ground withit whatsoever, and if you're going against someone with a fast, powerful WR attack - for example, mirror matching another Siegfried and his WR (B) - you're basically reacting to them moving at all and hoping that they're trying to attack you and not just block. That's one hole. Another is that jumping attacks - generic ones like 9K, 9A, etc; - really hurt the mixup. Being TJ they beat SRSH K, of course, completely, and they butcher SRSH B's combos. The most you can get off of air hit SRSH B is 50 (SRSH B ~ 3B), 23 damage less than the regular BnB follow-up (SRSH B ~ 88BB) and even then the combo is inconsistent depending on distance and stage placement. If they REALLY don't want to face the mixup, they can essentially lower the risk and reward at their leisure, and if they have the health advantage the ball is still in their court.

I covered his safety problems earlier. "Strategy" is an interesting word, because people like to throw it around as a catch-all excuse for making Siegfried better than he is. That is to say, strategy can mean any number of things, is always given in an extremely vague context, and doesn't really mean anything. It's almost like saying "your character is good and I don't know why he's good, but you need more strategy to make him good". Or maybe "you need to be able to read your opponent extremely well and predict what he's going to do around 95% of the time, and always answer with the best possible option for the situation" - which you could call strategy, per se, but if you can "strategy" that well, you can probably strategy with Raphael, too, who's shaping up to be this game's Rock. Or hell, you could probably have strategied with Rock back in SC4. My point is this - when you do not clarify, "strategy" becomes a buzzword that only serves to cover holes in arguments and does nothing to further discussion.

Also he can play at ANY range. and this is important against projectile characters. Algol is also really good. Viola too. He can take them on. You use omega and fight viola you feel like a clown

I cannot speak much on Algol's matchup since I have experienced little of him - the same goes for Viola. However to say that Siegfried can play at any range is quite the hyperbole. There is a reason that the Yoshimitsu/Siegfried matchup changes drastically when Yoshimitsu is close as opposed to at tip - Yoshi is far superior at CQC than Siegfried could ever hope to be. Pyrrha and Ω also get an (annoying) boost at that range where Siegfried is in a frantic race to get them off of him. Patroklos can annoy the hell out of him with his pokes and catch him with 66B if he backsteps predictably.

66K, 6A, and 1K are essentially all the tools he has for getting people off of him, and getting that blocked means that he either has to make an insanely risky guess or go back to blocking. Siegfried gets a gigantic boost to safety when he's at tip range - 3A because nigh-unpunishable, 3aA more so, agA becomes more advantageous on block, a blocked 3(B)/WR (B) is nowhere near as much of a problem, B6 can keep hitting an opponent indefinitely if they refuse to block - there are tons of benefits to playing at mid range that make Siegfried optimal at that range and sub-par at others.

Spoiler: For ShenChan

You can't feel the pressure you face in his mixups through the video, can you? When you actually played him before, you understand how strong this dude is. And Japanese always look horrible in videos, but alot of shit are actually going on between them. It's really educational.

We know the character and we understand his strengths and weaknesses, and thus we understand that pressure that is being applied and the ways to alleviate it. There are a lot of things that his opponents can do to punish or lesson his pressure immensely, and yet they refuse to do it. I'm sure that "alot of shit are actually going on between them" but when you put it like that, you're implying that Japan has reached a level so far above ours that they have eliminated stepping and 8WR from their meta-game - doesn't that sound just a little bit ridiculous?

Spoiler: For Belial

This SA is the face of you Siegfried players. All you do is whine. Even your combos thread is not organized in any way, even though some players contribute. If I want to learn your char its easier for me to check combos myself, then go through this shitty SA.

I always wondered if people clicked on those giant stickies that read "Siegfried Combo List". I guess they don't. Good to know.

CH 3B~SCH B into quick dash FC A_B+G = forced block. this KD is untechable. if you roll back sieg will pick you up. if you roll side you will get launched by FC throw as if standing.

I do this myself from time to time. It's heavily match-up dependant, however, because -18 at close range is not somewhere you want to be against certain opponents - Cervantes, Ω, α, for example.

2A+G into 22_88B hits otg, back,left roll. tracks right ukemi.

Not sure where you got "tracks right ukemi" from. If the opponent techs left, the first hit is a force block and the second hit whiffs for no reason - they have no reason to not try and interrupt. If the opponent techs right, the first hit whiffs and the second hit connects, but it makes the move much slower since the first hit is so far away. Either way it's not in your favor if they tech immediately, which everyone is learning to do.

22_88A into 22_88BB can only escabe by back ukemi

This is also true, but you're essentially giving the opponent no reason to NOT ukemi backwards. That's fine if that's the reaction you want, but the first time you're wrong can be just as damaging as the first time they're wrong.

far range CH 3B into 6B+K~RSH mixup is unavoidable if opponent side ukemi. (interestingly you can force them block sch K* on back ukemi here (they cannot GI, but can JG)

I'm beginning to notice a pattern here - "if opponent side ukemi". I've already covered how SRSH cannot pressure grounded whatsoever, so it's basically giving up damage for a mix-up you may or may not get.

SCH B CE combo for 107 dmg

If I'm using 1.0 meter in a combo, I better break the 100 damage mark. Thankfully, Siegfried gets Clean Hits fairly often, making SCH B ~ CE an extremely damaging combo that I'm glad to have.

3B is a TC mid with + on guard and hit (SCH B forced block and damage gauge)

The TC frames have been severely nerfed from SC4 to the point where it's only useful in extremely niche circumstances - iWR (B) is almost always the better option. Also the "+ on guard" thing is something that goes way back to pre-release - if it wasn't + on guard you wouldn't have to think at all about SCH. It forces a reverse mix-up, one that is generally not in your favor. The idea is to be in SCH when you're going to get a guaranteed combo opportunity.

Japanese ingnorance shines so bright its even blinding. Yoshi doing 214A to stop siegfried stance, wtf? Yes it kills all options but 4 or ~G but its not good enough for Heaton.

That's a good reaction, to be sure. 214A and iMCF vs SCH 4 ~ B and SCH B+K can be good damage for both of them, and is one of the times where it's actually not a bad idea to force SCH if you're confident in your reads.

Also, most of your points you made earlier are wholly dependent on character ignorance - they have to tech or roll a certain way for most Flap Jack mixups - and character ignorance can only take you so far. If your opponent doesn't know what's up, then by all means, do it until the cows come home, but I'm looking ahead. I'm thinking about the matchups as we'll know them once the new-ness of everything has worn off, once people have hit the lab and have understood what it is a character can do in any given circumstance, where character ignorance is much less prevalent than it is now. I understand that it's not something that you can ever get rid of completely, and humans are prone to forget or make mistakes, but to base an entire gameplan around character ignorance is not indicative of a high tier character. If you're that reliant on matchup ignorance you should go play Dampierre.

 

[Heaton]

In closing:

It agitates me to know that Project Soul listened to players who wanted Siegfried nerfed because of what I believe looks like sub-optimal play - for any kind of buff or nerf to come about as a direct result of gameplay, I believe it has to be from two people playing at the absolute optimum that is possible, and not people losing because of character ignorance.

I want to make this character work. This is why I am still playing him. However, I also know that character ignorance will only go so far with him, and I'm extremely vocal in eradicating character ignorance wherever it pops up. I want my win to be based on the reads I make as a player, and not because my opponent didn't do his homework. Winning because of matchup ignorance is, while still a victory, so much more hollow than winning because you out-thought and out-read your opponent. That is my philosophy.

If you bring help, if you offer advice, if you want to aid me, or others, or yourself get better at this game, if you have ideas that you think are applicable and make the character better, if you've made a discovery and wish to share it - I welcome whatever you bring.

If you bring mocking rhetoric, if you bring untrue criticisms and tired, false information spread through memes, if you bring false promises and fail to follow through on your explanations in a way that would make most politicians blush - what good are you to any of us?

 

[Belial]

Heathon: You're right about combos thread =) I went through "Combo discussion" and was like WTF I wasted my time on. Didnt notice that one, I thought its common to have combos and discussions in one thread. I've been through so many arena's with empty stickies...

Now back to the good part! (c)

His tracking is some of the worst I have ever seen. 3(B) has no tracking, SCH B has no tracking unless done from BT, SSH BBB whiffs THROUGH people, B4 does not track and also whiffs through you at certain "tip" ranges.

The TC frames have been severely nerfed from SC4

Verticals not tracking, wow) When ppl would stop comparing characters to SC4,3,2 instead of comparing them to other characters in SC5?


As for other points you've made... okay, once again, Im quite shocked by how people only see what supports their pov.
Why do you always see the negatives... I dont get it.
If you truly think your character suck, switch to another, dont torture yourself pls. But there are very, very few characters like Siegfried in the game, so, I dont think you'll find something to your liking.
His main mixup tools hit ppl otg. his CH is crazy. His step control has sick range and adv on guard. Everything KD and has some sort of followup...
I dont think there are other mids like 3B in the whole game but its not good enough for you, still
Almost every KD has a way to force them into predictable get up, but its not good for you until its full trap...
I dont know what to say. I give up. Siegfried is really low tier...

 

[Heaton]

Heathon: You're right about combos thread =) I went through "Combo discussion" and was like WTF I wasted my time on. Didnt notice that one, I thought its common to have combos and discussions in one thread. I've been through so many arena's with empty stickies...

Believe me when I say I absolutely hate what others are doing (or NOT doing) with their SAs. Hell, one SA mod actually deleted ALL of the combos that had been put up and I had to go back and fix that. I'm trying to help out in as many as I can, though, because I hate the stickies not being organized at all. If you think you can help, PLEASE let me know - I'm always short on hands and would love to have someone else to count on.

Now back to the good part! (c)

Here we go again...

Verticals not tracking, wow) When ppl would stop comparing characters to SC4,3,2 instead of comparing them to other characters in SC5?

You took this out of context. This was my response to ShenYuan who said Siegfried DOES have good tracking - he doesn't. Honestly, making everything he has track would introduce more problems than it solved, and I can sort of sympathize with Project Soul on that. Do you make the huge damage, safe vertical track a little bit, and have people who should have stepped it end up getting hit? Or do you butcher it and have it whiff even after a successful 8B+K? It's not an easy question with an easy answer, and I can at least understand Project Soul's decision on it.

As for other points you've made... okay, once again, Im quite shocked by how people only see what supports their pov.
Why do you always see the negatives... I dont get it.
If you truly think your character suck, switch to another, dont torture yourself pls. But there are very, very few characters like Siegfried in the game, so, I dont think you'll find something to your liking.

I'm starting to like Maxi a lot. =)

His main mixup tools hit ppl otg. his CH is crazy. His step control has sick range and adv on guard. Everything KD and has some sort of followup...
I dont think there are other mids like 3B in the whole game but its not good enough for you, still
Almost every KD has a way to force them into predictable get up, but its not good for you until its full trap...

3(B) inconsistently hits OTG. 22BB whiffs seemingly randomly as well. 1AA isn't a roll trap anymore. SRSH can't hit grounded at all. WR (B) doesn't hit grounded at all. 44(B) is rollable...my point being is that the moves that hit grounded whiff stupidly for no reason. I mean, fuck, they even butchered 2KKKKK! Now that's fucked up.

Conditioning predictable responses is definitely a good thing, and is something I try to incorporate when I can. agA post knockdown has a few of those with B4 (latest input) that I use when I can. But when people say things like "he is top tier" I have to compare it to other powerful, top tier material. Ω gets 66B off of a number of KNDs where it's a force block no matter what you do. Cervantes has a few force block setups that involve 4b(BE). You understand where I'm going. Forcing predictable techs are not bad. But getting guaranteed guard damage or damage if they do something else is much better - top tier material, in my opinion - and is what I have to compare this "top tier Siegfried" to.

I dont know what to say. I give up. Siegfried is really low tier...

I do not think Siegfried is low tier. Believe me, if I thought he was low tier I would have just dropped him and forgot about him completely. I do not think he is high tier, either, and I definitely do not think he is a character that needs to be nerfed. Hell, I don't think ANYONE needed to be nerfed at this point. However, given the system changes, many, many things remain to be seen, including an absolute tier list. Knowing this character and how to optimally use him, I don't think he can be top tier in this iteration. I think he is at least mid tier, but where he goes from there depends entirely on what people discover about other characters, and if Namco decides to nerf anyone else. That is how I feel.

 

[Pantocrator]

I should delete my 8wayrun account for my mental health.

Yes Siegfried's 3b is soo strong.

i18 (so fast in this game), TC (3frame, what a huge window), 39 damage in NH (worst in the game ?) , 72 in CH (CRAZY CH damage, and 66A+B is force block ! ), whiff randomly (because this move is too strong for this game), -1 on block (so much cool that you can loose more than half or your life bar if you do the wrong choice if blocked, or just get hit by a CE), doesn't launch at max range, amazing recovery (most of the time you can whiff trap your opponnent with SCH B), + than 70 in Nh if you can do jf (that's normal, like aP, if you have skill = broken), about 100 damage if you use 1 bar and half (no one in this game can do better for SURE).

I guess it's impossible to find a so good 3B/mid starter in this game.

 

[Belial]

Yes you should but for the sake of others mental health.

Actually. Mitsurugi is crap.
His 3B is so unsafe you lose lots of life for doing that against most chars and if you're stupid enough to burn meter for 3B(BE) they step and you lose half life for guessing wrong. Nvm it doesnt hit OTG RANDOMLY (b/c im too lazy to check axis dependant stuff) and if you have meter you can do something like 78 dmg or 100 dmg for 1,5 bars. Pure garbage.
His 2KB sucks ass if its block you waste meter for nothing and on hit it doesnt even build much, most chars take 1/2 life if step/JG second hit. (See you always lose half life for guessing wrong with mitsu, thats what Im talking about) its -17 on HIT. AND never use it on wakeup b/c if they dont get up you waste meter and GET PUNISHED. And 1/2 bar for only 50 dmg??? Really? I'd better spend my meter elsewhere.
Oh nearly forgot, some characters can step 2KB to the side RANDOMLY. How lame is that?
Now its pretty clear his mixup sucks balls, his stance is handicapped, he has no stepkillers and his gauge game is garbage. Mitsurugi is low tier, Im switching to Maxi.

 

[Nightblade]

Why aren't you in the Alpha Patroklos forum complaining that he can go 115 damage with no bar spent off a safe mid launcher with several chances for Clean Hit? Yes, Siegfried has some great stuff, but he has to take risk to do any of it. His stuff is nowhere near game-breaking - some of it isn't even consistent, and it's all punishable. He's a medium/high risk, medium/high reward character. Digest that for a bit.

Don't you realize that the devs nerfed Mitsu 2KB for a reason? They were sick of the overused easy mid/low mix-up that he had in IV and other games prior, so they make you use meter (which he still gains, easily) if you want that free unseeable low, and I agree with that. You should mind the game's engine priorities and work on horizontal/vertical mix-up, rather than complaining you don't get free cheese anymore. Mitsu's mids are good enough to keep people from ducking carelessly, and lows suck in this game, so you may as well take advantage of the fact that you have a great one, despite having to spend meter for it. How are we supposed to take your gripes seriously if you don't even appear to have a grasp on your own character's priorities? You lose just as much life guessing wrong with Sieg dude - comparing our risk/reward situations. Difference is, you get those situations without having to commit to an incredibly telegraphed stance. People step Sieg's HORIZONTALS dude. I don't want to hear you complain about a fast sweeping low.

'fuck outta here.

 

[Heaton]

'fuck outta here.

He's straw-manning the argument to say that thinking Siegfried isn't top tier is like thinking Mitsurugi isn't top tier. Or maybe he actually thinks Mitsurugi isn't top tier. I don't know. Either way there's no point in engaging someone in a discussion when they'd rather just resort to fallacies to try and prove points.

Discussion moved since we're not talking about videos anymore.