Siegfried Q&A / General Discussion

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So here's a thing.

Normally when you Guard Impact a move that has impact frames that overlap with Tech Jump frames, your impact sends your opponent flying, and if they hit the ground, they take damage roughly equivalent to the damage of their move (or something like this). You can still get an attack in, but it negates the damage they would take from the hitting the ground, which is usually more than you can get from an aerial hit. Thus, B+K against moves like Natsu A+B isn't so good, right?

Here's the thing. If you B+K against Natsu A+B, you'll send her flying back. If you do SBH B as soon as you can after Impacting, you'll send them directly up into the air - however, you get this dinky little launch that only sends them up half as high as you would if you had done it on a standing opponent, and it looks like you don't have nearly enough time to get even 1K to combo.

Well, you can get 1K to combo. And 66B. And 22*88BB. And 44(B) ~ SBH k(BE). Except at at the farthest possible range that still allows you to GI, you can get every combo on air hit SBH B that you can with normal hit SBH B. The fact that SBH B doesn't launch as high doesn't seem to matter, since they're still airborne for roughly the same amount of time.

It's something to keep in mind against the few characters with aerial, horizontal mids.
 
Double post because fuck you.

I have seen the LIGHT and know now why 2KKKKK is SHIT.

Look forward to a long post on retarded combos (that are still in the game) and Namco's rationale behind SHITnerfing.
 
DerLindwurm said:
But, if you use a single 2K as a poke, it can't be blocked at all, right? Or just no one ever does?
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...I'm not sure what you're asking. I have had people block (and then launch) me for an accidental 2K, though, so it IS possible to block.
 
There've been a lot of times I went for 1K, got 2K instead, and it hit them for the poke when it looked to me like they were crouching to block low, though I still misinterpret a lot of animations.

Never actually been on the receiving end of it myself to know.
 
DerLindwurm said:
snip
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Itt's definitely blockable. Shit, it's -18 on block, which guarantees stupid damage from about half the cast. It's been basically worthless, and even with this new gdlk tech, it's still going to be fairly niche, I think.
 
How is the consistency of those combos? I still cant decide if i prefer to go for the usual BnB wallcombos after 22A splats, or the guaranteed UB (22A~W!~3B~W!~236 B).
 
ChaosK said:
How is the consistency of those combos? I still cant decide if i prefer to go for the usual BnB wallcombos after 22A splats, or the guaranteed UB (22A~W!~3B~W!~236 B).
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Depends on the character. Against Mitsurugi and α Patroklos, I'll probably go for it always. Against those it works on but is still really inconsistent on, like Aeon or Tira, I'll probably go for gimmick back throw stuff.
 
You can use 2KKKKK to hurt people badly at the wall. This is off 88A, which is great because you're probably already using this to fish for wall hits anyway. What you want to do is hit 88A and the subsequent 3B at such an angle that you're ever so slightly to Siegfried's left of them, while still on axis enough that the 3(B) gives you the high wall splat. When you do the 2KKKKK, you're going to end up stomping mostly on their rear calf, because it's the only part sticking out from their hitbox. For some, you can end up stomping across their entire body - experiment and see what angle is consistent for which character.

In my opinion it's easiest to start out on α Patroklos, Algol, Astaroth, or Mitsurugi (in order of easiest to hardest), though you can do it on all of the characters listed below:

Code: 
α Patroklos*
Aeon**
Astaroth
Cervantes
Ezio Auditore
Hilde
Maxi
Mitsurugi
Tira***
Voldo
Xiba
Yoshimitsu
Z.W.E.I.
 
*He moonwalks with you! Looks super jank.
**Requires a different angle compared to others; think a little more parallel with him
***Jolly only

Here's a combo list, with regular BnBs listed for comparison:
Code: 
Starter is 88A ~ W!
 
- 6K ~ W! ~ Back Throw                            92 damage
- 66K ~ W! ~ Back Throw                            94 damage
- 3(B)~ W! ~ G ~ WR (B) ~ SCH B                    96 damage
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 6B+K ~ SRSH B ~ 22BB                99 damage
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 4B+K ~ SSH BBB                      101 damage
 
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ 66B                        102 damage
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ A+B                        104 damage
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ 2(A+B) ~ SBH k(BE)        119 damage
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ 66B (tech)                132 damage
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ 66B (tech) ~ W! ~ CE      203 damage

The Rationale Behind Nerfing

The best I can speculate is that 2KKKKK made Siegfried really god damn obnoxious at the wall. To be fair, he still is - the damage difference between current BnBs and 2KKKKK combos aren't all that different. That is, they're not all that different until you take into account Clean Hits and meter options. 66B has a Clean Hit rate of B, which is fairly often, and 2(A+B) ~ SBH k(BE) does 20 damage more than SSH BBB or 66B enders for either combos. Not to mention, the tech traps off of 2KKKKK quickly reach ludicrous levels of meterless damage.

Thus, instead of nerfing the combo enders and possibly ruining them elsewhere, they nerfed the move that gave these situations - 2KKKKK. It wouldn't be too big of a deal, since he still has a serviceable low okizeme tool in 1K, and he doesn't lose too much damage from the wall combo damage, since he has SSH BBB. So nerfing 2KKKKK was probably the logical nerfing choice for trying to reign in his wall combo damage without neutering him too much in other areas.

At least, it WOULD be logical if they didn't nerf 2A+B in a subsequent patch. =P
 
Heaton said:
You can use 2KKKKK to hurt people badly at the wall. This is off 88A, which is great because you're probably already using this to fish for wall hits anyway. What you want to do is hit 88A and the subsequent 3B at such an angle that you're ever so slightly to Siegfried's left of them, while still on axis enough that the 3(B) gives you the high wall splat. When you do the 2KKKKK, you're going to end up stomping mostly on their rear calf, because it's the only part sticking out from their hitbox. For some, you can end up stomping across their entire body - experiment and see what angle is consistent for which character.

In my opinion it's easiest to start out on α Patroklos, Algol, Astaroth, or Mitsurugi (in order of easiest to hardest), though you can do it on all of the characters listed below:

Code: 
α Patroklos*
Aeon**
Astaroth
Cervantes
Ezio Auditore
Hilde
Maxi
Mitsurugi
Tira***
Voldo
Xiba
Yoshimitsu
Z.W.E.I.
 
*He moonwalks with you! Looks super jank.
**Requires a different angle compared to others; think a little more parallel with him
***Jolly only

Here's a combo list, with regular BnBs listed for comparison:
Code: 
Starter is 88A ~ W!
 
- 6K ~ W! ~ Back Throw                            92 damage
- 66K ~ W! ~ Back Throw                            94 damage
- 3(B)~ W! ~ G ~ WR (B) ~ SCH B                    96 damage
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 6B+K ~ SRSH B ~ 22BB                99 damage
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 4B+K ~ SSH BBB                      101 damage
 
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ 66B                        102 damage
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ A+B                        104 damage
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ 2(A+B) ~ SBH k(BE)        119 damage
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ 66B (tech)                132 damage
- 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ 66B (tech) ~ W! ~ CE      203 damage

The Rationale Behind Nerfing

The best I can speculate is that 2KKKKK made Siegfried really god damn obnoxious at the wall. To be fair, he still is - the damage difference between current BnBs and 2KKKKK combos aren't all that different. That is, they're not all that different until you take into account Clean Hits and meter options. 66B has a Clean Hit rate of B, which is fairly often, and 2(A+B) ~ SBH k(BE) does 20 damage more than SSH BBB or 66B enders for either combos. Not to mention, the tech traps off of 2KKKKK quickly reach ludicrous levels of meterless damage.

Thus, instead of nerfing the combo enders and possibly ruining them elsewhere, they nerfed the move that gave these situations - 2KKKKK. It wouldn't be too big of a deal, since he still has a serviceable low okizeme tool in 1K, and he doesn't lose too much damage from the wall combo damage, since he has SSH BBB. So nerfing 2KKKKK was probably the logical nerfing choice for trying to reign in his wall combo damage without neutering him too much in other areas.

At least, it WOULD be logical if they didn't nerf 2A+B in a subsequent patch. =P
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or they could have just nerfed the tech recovery frames off a grounded hit 2KKKKK so that the move would still be generally useful, but wouldnt have enough + frames to tech trap into ridiculous shit. more or less the moonwalk thing was a lazy nerf imo.
 
Slayer_X64 said:
or they could have just nerfed the tech recovery frames off a grounded hit 2KKKKK so that the move would still be generally useful, but wouldnt have enough + frames to tech trap into ridiculous shit. more or less the moonwalk thing was a lazy nerf imo.
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It probably was, but do you really want an in-depth nerf?
 
So, to resume the speculation.
They nerfed 2KKKKK and made it useless to prevent Siegfried to do 20 damages more on a wall combo by using meter ?
Or to do 5 damage more by using a B rate clean hit move ?
Hard to be convinced, since a BE for 20 damage doesn't seem interesting.

The oldest built I played was the TGS one. The move was already like this, even when the clean hit system was still not created.
The game is just not finish, that's all.
But well, I guess that this way of thinking helps to feel less salty hahaha. (I should try)

PS : In any case the combo looks so cool. Nice one !
 
Pantocrator said:
stuff about 2K
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Well, in addition to that, you have the fact that Siegfried's okizeme - and just okizeme in general - has changed so much from SC4 to SC5. Rolling is no longer safe, and Siegfried still has a good tracking ground hitting mid in 66B, making sleeping an appealing option. If 2KKKKK didn't moonwalk, you can get an easy 42 damage on sleepers instead of the reduced damage you get on ground hit 3(B), making his okizeme game really good. So good, in fact, that it could quickly reach Mitsurugi levels of obnoxiousness against characters that can't punish one or the other (or both) on block.

I would speculate that Project Soul believed that 2KKKKK did too many things too well, and saw that nerfing just that move didn't neuter him, only made him less stupid strong. He still has good wall damage and good okizeme, just not as good if he would have Moonwalk-less 2KKKKK. In the end,I don't think there's all that much to be salty about unless you wanted to play Mitsufried.

Pantocrator said:
PS : In any case the combo looks so cool. Nice one !
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Not only does it look cool, it absolutely MURDERS people for teching, and I don't doubt that people are going to tech after getting hit by something they haven't seen since SC4. Even if they don't, 66B is still guaranteed. This is extremely consistent on α Patroklos because of his moonwalk, so I urge all of you to make this a staple of your anti-αPat game.
 
Heaton said:
Not only does it look cool, it absolutely MURDERS people for teching,
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It will maybe work at first, but it won't be solid on a medium/long term point of view. Since you have nothing to force the opponent to tech, you won't murder anyone :-).
Will it be worth it ? Hard to perform (specific angles + characters) with almost no reward on a opponent who doesn't tech. (5 points with clean hit, 18 with a BE)
But well, it looks cool ;-).
 
I forgot to answer this :

Heaton said:
If 2KKKKK didn't moonwalk, you can get an easy 42 damage on sleepers
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Not really because of the damage scalling :-)
The first hit of 22BB is doing 30 damage, the second 38. But the combo (on a standing or grounded oppenant) is doing only 56.
If 2KKKKK was combo, it would have done only 33 damage (same as 33B). This is totally ok on my point of view for a -18 move :-)
Nothing to do with mitsurugi since it doesn't work against standing oppenants (only the two first hit could connect) with a bad frame advantage for Siegfried).
No reason at all to nerf this move, especially on a so stupid way.
They just did something else wrong with it, but what exactly ? lol.
 
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