Soul Calibur V Raphael - Nerfs? Buffs? Change Of Style?

ShenRii

ShenRii

[09] Warrior
What do you guys think?

I think Namco might just change him up again.
Who knows, he might become Teleport heavy this time since Teleport is so underused.
Or perhaps 2_8B+K will now be a full swing, giving him some frontal coverage?
Will Raphael get the 'Hop Evade' back from Amy?

I'm excited!
 
change him drastically. make sure he actually does damage this time

and give him more than one combo. please
 
I say keep him as he is for the most part....
but give a guard break move, and possibly another unblockable.
Perhaps, give the guy a few more combo opportunities, even if the combos don't do much damage...
 
A)Raph will likely still rely on committing to stance to deal "respectable damage" which, in sc4 was:
1) go into stance with significant risk to deal about ~110% "average" damage
2) don't go into stance with minimal risk to deal ~50% "average" damage (even if you hit with a 3B, you feel like you lost 50% damage)

Instead of just raw buffing his stance-based combo damage in SC5, another option is to increase his defense during stance. The auto-ducking is awesome imo, but the B+K side step and A+B backstep options are not as reliable.

In terms of stance complexity, it was SC2>SC4>SC3 imo, and I think raph's stance options should be between SC2 and SC4.

B)side-step specific CH moves should be integrated into raph's move list. Certain horizontals perhaps ?

C)2_8B+K needs more than "frontal" coverage imo. It doesn't even necessarily hit them during an opponents step because it basically covers only at 90 or 270 degrees (you'll notice it whiffing proportionally worse at range when they do a tiny side step). Both versions in SC3 and SC4 were basically unusable, so maybe a serious improvement to the move's tracking is in order. Sure the pre1.03 BB tracking was universally disliked by non-raph users, but if 2 and 8B+K only tracked to their respective sides then I think it's a fair compromise (I'm willing to lose the NH combo and settle for 30ish damage)

D) Teleports may be expanded (in terms of useability) but it's still a gimmick imo and auto-evades should seriously be considered instead.

E) For a fencer, raph's retreat and advancing options are not as good as some other characters. Will we see the return of SC2's 214 ? perhaps as an auto-evade against mid horizontals.
 
no problem with damage but really most of his mids has to hit supertechcrouch -.- first of all...at least BB
And give him some low damage mid tracking fast poke with at least +4 on hit just to play against char with TC TS moves .-.
or just give 6K serious tracking it'd be great :O

And a decent AA in term of frames would be good also i mean: first hit does not hit, its short range, at least make it fast.

P.S. raph has many combo XD 44K 2B u.u or 66A+B thing, 66(B)KK 11B etc etc etc :).... just give him some serious wall combo -.- he doesn t have any usable in a match
 
This is where I get too over creative for Raph here's how I want my SC5 Raph to be, just for the fun of it.

-The return of auto-evade in the form of teleport. I rather give away Cervy's A+K and B+K auto-teleport to Raph.
-I like the SC2 version of Raph's 3A.
-Only 8G becomes Amy's A+K the rest are regular jumps.
-9K becomes a low jump kick which players can react to and if he successfully hits you he can do the JF option.
-33_99K picks ppl off the ground.
-66K will be be SC4 Raph's B+K K
-Faster 6B probably as fast as Kilik's 6B2
-44AB becomes SC2's version of Raph's 4AB during one of his preps
-66B gives you the option to hold B enabling auto-GI properties as he had on in SC2 in one of his prep stance.
-SC2's version of BB as both hit grounded opponents.

Fun imagination as always, I expect ppl to put on their flame retarded helmets and flame me.
 
Honestly, bring back the SC2 stances, I loved the complexity. One prep and one sidestep is not enough! And Spiral/Circular Envelopment. And yes, bring back his 236 and 214 steps. And nerf Sophi's... lmao.

Basically all his SC2 utility moves... SC4 attack moveset is fine. Doesn't need to do as much damage as other characters... needs to be able to dodge more.
 
I really don't want to see option-select auto-evades ever again, but I do like the Amy hop, I remember it. Raph should have it if Amy does; he should be as well-off as her or better if it's about technique* or stamina.
I have a wishlist, which mainly breaks down into: "What every move - of any character - in this system should do," mostly about soul crushing, and "What this move should do or just be removed." Let me just give the parts of the second list I cannot do without:

Free up some input slots, and use them. Move 11B back to simultaneous press (8wr B+K, maybe) and put 33B in 11B (likewise 99B). Scrap or redesign 66B and bam, two forward-moving 8wr verticals. Cut 44K so it's just 11_77K, move 66K back to 44K, and you have a free 66K. Make it something you'd actually do over Run K. <_< Possibly Advance Step, but I'm fine without it, and I don't think advance/retreat can ever be put in SC's system anyway.

Don't change B+K, even its flaws and weirdness (keep death stun pl0x). Give Raph an aggressive tech step attack. 66B is a good candidate for this, it would excuse a part where he turns his back on the opponent. Whatever the TS is, he deserves one if something as reckless-looking as Soph B+K counts. But Vurkolak is different. Raph B+K as it is represents an envelopment fairly well, even if we don't see an envelopment animated. Keep VE a threatening, scary stance to be in, even if it has nuances. EDIT: That's why I mention these two together. A stocatta, as a tech step vert, would complement VE well. Or some vert GI, that GIs specific directions of cut.

Raph horizontals are sad. You only have seven to work with, and probably four of those are fixed in function. Every one that doesn't cover horizontal space should in itself be amazing; in top 15. I like the -idea- of 3A, it's a flank cut, but it's weak. He winds up for 20 frames and makes a show of it, make it hurt. It's "fat" on one side like everyone else's verticals, but no reward. I'd most like it to be animated as it is now, i20, with real stun on hit, at least counter hit. Straight to mid/low/throw. Keep G=-14, hell make it worse. Keep linearity. But if Raph is going to use his precious open-ended 3A input on something that doesn't solve his large problem, make it hurt. Make it a move that conceptually just had to be horizontal. (And let me use it to stop that damned Crane stance, ugh)

Remove AA. You know it's true. It's just not how Raph will play. Design for A (and AB hopefully) knowing that it's just A (and AB). Further, if A doesn't track both sides, forget about tracking with it and add :aA:, a feint of A that does track. Simple. 66A could stand to be improved. To make it a press, there should be a guessing game after the block. Rather than boost its frames, make a confirmable 66A.A create a frame trap on block, possibly Low. Poof, 66A suddenly makes sense as an i23 High on a character that usually hates zero-range. Either it's confirmable, NC, or the second move is itself alright on block. I want to say something about 44A and 22A together, but not here.

For badass points:
Imagine this. SEβ K is an :sp: that cancels stance into teleport. Teleport in place, upright. Better yet, make K6 do that, and K teleports in BT. K4 goes behind the opponent (facing them). Maybe K2 does something.
Then it would really be a Shadow Evade, lol.

*"Technique" is his having 1BB and Amy only 1B (look at his legs and remember 1BB recovers standing); Amy can have 'agility' out the wazoo, even friggin BT B+K236 backflips, whatever.
 
It feels more natural to have 44K still as his Crescent Moon Kick and have 11_77K for something else.

I propose a redesign of AA rather than removing it:
A - Same animation but let it track to Raph's Left.
AA - HM, 2nd A looks similar to 3A.
A2A - HL, 2nd A is similar to his SC2 1A (It's a a kneeling close range low swipe that trips ala 1K).

Retreat Step (SC3) would be good, as long as it does a considerable retreat.
RS A - Low Swipe (SC 2 Prep I A)
RS 6AB/6A{B} - Hori Mid, Mid Stab (Sc 2 Prep I 6AB). Give RS 6A an auto-GI or GB.
RS B - Currrent 44B
RS 3BB - Current FC 3BB

As for tech step, he's got 4A. It's damage just needs to be buffed (Crumple Stun on CH).
His 33_99B is a potential candidate for a proper tech step (if the step is buffed) and it needs it's CH Hop Stun.

I agree with your 3A, it needs damage (Lol, I feel like I've said that many times).

236 (Not necessarily advance step)
236AB - Same as SC3.
236B - Same as SC4.
236A+B - Current 11_77B

4A+B.BB - Let him do it without the Auto-GI or make the Auto-GI not re-GIable.

44A+B - Make 44[A+B] a Prep cancel and 44A+B~G a cancel into Neutral. Everything else remains the same.
 
33B should end its tracking once raph ends his tech step (not end immediately after input of 33B) .. so it'll have a longer period of tracking (like 44B which ends tracking after the GI phase)

Out of all of raph's current lows (1K, 2K, FC 3B, 1A, 33B, 1BB) are super linear while being - on hit and doing mediocre damage. Most of them are faster than i20, so the slower lows should track a bit more to mess up the opponents step-guard timing.
 
Bring back Raphael from SC3 an keep the new stance sequences from SC4. I was having a really hard character to fight in Raphael from SC2/3 but in SC4 I tried to play as him to show to all the regular Ralph players that with the correct knowledge you can use him and win. I was wrong. Bring Back Ralph from SC2/3 and I will be happy 4ever.
 
Nonono, there are two ways a move might hit step. One is to track the step: Realignment during (at least some of) the startup frames of the move. The other is just to have horizontal hitboxes: hitboxes that will collide with an opponent even if you are off-axis on the active frame. I can't think of a good single word for this second thing.
Many moves make sense not tracking, but don't make sense lacking a horizontal hitbox too. 1K, and imo, all moves that TJ or are animated as a jump, shouldn't track*, but they can have wide hitboxes. Raph's 1K is wide enough to hit one 'roll-space' to either side in IV, but apparently inconsistent about hitting sidestep. This should change. It's just weird in comparison to 2K, especially 2K's + on CH. *Exceptions being if the character levitates or w/e. Honestly, I'd take +2 on CH over 'nonlinearity'.

I keep mentioning these realism factors because that's what SC is to me. It's the Fighter that, (aside the supernatural plot devices, Soul Edge & Soul Calibur) looks real and has a feel of fighting with real weapons in real places using believable techniques. Except launchers, but they stand in for bloodspilling, lol. Tiny details like not having tracking TJs can add up to give a good feeling, even if players would not see the individual things which create the effect.

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Since my project to use 33_99B without ghosting has had extreme success, I am indifferent to changing it, lol. When you can get it to a point where it misses -only- when stepped or jumped, it's really effectively annoying. It helps own that space and it's so good with 22B, omg I have become so much better at all Fighters since playing one more time after Belial's post. If it bot buffed in its connection factors, it would have to get weaker in what it -does-, get slower, or it could become spammable and thence boring. It's in a good spot now, when you -use- the differences of the two modes. I don't care if this move changes per se, but as I've said I like how Raph has a mid-tier moveset. I can play top tier in vanilla SF and BB.

One other thought I had was to make JMP A into an SL. I'd so much rather have guaranteed blockstun than a property to beat a GI no-one will do. Also, TCs. ****ing TCs. Raph can swing the sword like 214A, just in the air. Still jumpable if you are a noob with it.
 
Mandritti said:
Nonono, there are two ways a move might hit step. One is to track the step: Realignment during (at least some of) the startup frames of the move. The other is just to have horizontal hitboxes: hitboxes that will collide with an opponent even if you are off-axis on the active frame. I can't think of a good single word for this second thing.
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Are you absolutely positive ?

Regarding verticals:

1.
In regards to tracking, I'm "guessing" that the point in time when the move ceases to track will affect it's overall tracking ability.
If you have a i16 move that stops "alignment" at i3 and one that stops "alignment" at i10, then it's obvious the 2nd move tracks better. To visualize this, you'd have to assume that throughout the entirety of the move that the opponent is side stepping. The first move will be aligned to where the opponent WAS at i3, whereas the 2nd move is aligned to where the opponent WAS at i10 (and therefore will be closer to where the opponent will end up at the end of their step). A good example is that raph's 44B is to be stepped much later in the animation.

2.
"Width" of hitbox is simply how large the hitbox was, and can compensate against moves that end tracking earlier simply because of a) the size of the hitbox and b) the angle it comes out at. A good example is how raph's 6A will hit you with the hilt if the opponent is facing raph, and the blade will hit the opponent if they step to raph's left. Moves like wrB and 8K gain "tracking" due to this method.

3.
"maximum angle of alignment" is sort of like how far a move (picture this as an arc representing raph's direction) will track before it'll seem like it wont' re-align due to the opponent simply being out of raph's "sight". This usually affects the 2nd move in a string, which you test against raph's AA by using taki's PO step. or the 3rd hit of raph's 6BBB. Another example is watching raph changing angles when he connects with 3(B)~prepBB on hit.

I'm not sure these are the only factors to consider when determing a vertical move's tracking. Normal horizontals follow rule 2 a lot more, but raph's horizontals are semi tracking like how some other characters have semi-tracking verticals.

Since my project to use 33_99B without ghosting has had extreme success, I am indifferent to changing it, lol. When you can get it to a point where it misses -only- when stepped or jumped, it's really effectively annoying. It helps own that space. If it bot buffed in its connection factors, it would have to get weaker in what it -does-, get slower, or it could become spammable and thence boring. It's in a good spot now, when you -use- the differences of the two modes..
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Thats exactly the point though. Doing a list of pros/cons to this move and omitting tracking, you'd see that for a move with awesome range, awesome SG damage, and semi-deceptive TS, it has terrible frames on block, very late impact frame, and is - on hit. Therefore, using a delayed vertical as a "tracking tool" imo should fit in raph's game plan and is not "too good".


Considering that he'll likely have a major prep overhaul (again) i'll note that I miss raph's CH ability. Raph gains very little on CH from moves in neutral stance, and his high damage CH is more due to opponent's lack of knowledge of his frames going into stance entries. All this "big" 60 damage combos are NH. He could use another neutral poke that gives some sort of advantage on CH relative to NH (stuns, attack-throw, or even just better frames) to compliment 6BBB.
 
Factor 3 looks like a rider on factor 1. It's a statement of limiting conditions on the realignment of the character. Yes, I forgot about it, but notice, it's still only 1 & 2 which would -allow- a move to hit step. Factor 3 is just to say "When a move is realigning during the appropriate frames, it may not do so completely" specifically "there may be an angle of turn that it will not exceed, and stop there."
Since this is about knobs and dials for the developers to turn to achieve a different power level, yes, that is right: it is something else and I ignored it. Certainly, say, though I would advocate 1A to track to Raph's left, it should not be able to turn very far - it ought to be escaped by a character with a step as far as his own, at least. But for my statement "I think TJs ought to stick to fat hitboxes to catch step" I'm still saying the same thing as that they shouldn't realign at all*. Factor 1 doesn't apply so factor 3 vanishes.

*Of course many moves realign for some tiny number of frames at the startup. At least for 1 frame, since we don't have to G to realign everything. Moves that we would say 'track' are the ones where the number is significant in real situations, I guess > 4? I just say that TJs shouldn't realign after the effective jump frame.

.. oh wait, is this about "horizontal hitboxes"? I just meant hitboxes that aren't 0 in the horizontal dimension. So, yeah, WS B has a 'horizontal hitbox'. It includes at least -some- space in the left/right dimension (the right), which another character may occupy in or after a side movement.


I see what you're saying about 33B, but allow me then to just say: I really love 33B and I think 33B can accomplish one function as it is, and perhaps another could be this delayed tracking vert. Perhaps it could even use the input 33B if 33B is moved to 11B, lol.
 
I think Raphael should be killed off and replaced with Mandritti. So when Namco eventually puts you in the game, which weapon would you prefer to use, goose?
 
haha you sure can troll but it doesn't seem you take it too well.

anyways, his sc2 66B was an excellent poke, combining speed and reach (a longer ranged SC4 3B). SC4's 66B seems more like a combo fisher/whiff punisher. I'm all for raph having a low risk 66B.
 
InsaneKhent said:
I think Raphael should be killed off and replaced with Mandritti. So when Namco eventually puts you in the game, which weapon would you prefer to use, goose?
Click to expand...
High praise, but what do you mean by-
..wait. Your angle is to make Seong Mi-Na more viable. I don't think getting rid of her Raph matchup is a rational move to solve that issue, no matter how awesome I would be in Raph's place. Surely there is a fix with more continuity; buffs for Mi-Na are in order, first.
 
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