Soul Calibur VI: General discussion

I don't understand the whining about learning the match up for the DLC characters, if you don't want to buy them.

I never played Nightmare or Maxi to learn how to fight them. You'll have a better understanding if you learn to play the character, sure, but it's not necessary.
 
ShadMaria4ever said:
I don't understand the whining about learning the match up for the DLC characters, if you don't want to buy them.

I never played Nightmare or Maxi to learn how to fight them. You'll have a better understanding if you learn to play the character, sure, but it's not necessary.
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Sounds like maybe you dont know how the training feature works. Setting the cpu to perform actions and attacks is how players have been testing and checking moves since Tekken 2. That was the first time i remember seeing it, which was what, 20 years ago?

I dont need to play 2B, i just need her on the training feature.
 
The problem w/ DLC training feature is that the dev's won't get revenue for it. If no one buys the character, and makes him/her accessible in training mode, how can they get paid?
 
Project Bokuho said:
The problem w/ DLC training feature is that the dev's won't get revenue for it. If no one buys the character, and makes him/her accessible in training mode, how can they get paid?
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You make it seem as if you wouldnt purchase 2B if she was available in training. I'm pretty sure everyone that bought her, did so because they want to player her, either online, Libra etc.
 
AMillionHP said:
Sounds like maybe you dont know how the training feature works. Setting the cpu to perform actions and attacks is how players have been testing and checking moves since Tekken 2. That was the first time i remember seeing it, which was what, 20 years ago?

I dont need to play 2B, i just need her on the training feature.
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I know perfectly well how the training mode works, thank you very much. It's still not necessary; you want to learn the match up that way, but you don't need it. There's plenty of 2Bs playing online, so practicing against her is no issue.
 
ShadMaria4ever said:
I know perfectly well how the training mode works, thank you very much. It's still not necessary; you want to learn the match up that way, but you don't need it. There's plenty of 2Bs playing online, so practicing against her is no issue.
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That sounds like a terrible idea. Like AMillionHP said, having access to the character in question in training mode is the best course of action, and other games already do this.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1076021120334061569

https://twitter.com/x/status/1076022203857002496
 
It’s not just about “learning the match up” or “whining”.
I had the same issues with Ivy but i’ve Learnt a lot through anti guides and some legacy knowledge, it’s part of what I love about fighting games and the uphill battle against a good ivy player.

But I’m not talking out of my arse when I say she seems out of place.
And I’m not saying she’s unbeatable either I’m saying fighting her saps a lot of enjoyment from my experience with SC6.

I’m not unreasonable that I wouldn’t admit that an awful amount of work and detail went into 2B.
And I’m grateful for project souls commitment to collaboration.

But not everyone is going to enjoy the thong wearing, hyper dashing anime android, and that’s ok.
Whether her moves are safe or unsafe she’s annoying AF to play against, it actually doesn’t feel like a SC game either with how over the top matches can be once she gets going.

I just hope we get some series vets soon.
 
ShadMaria4ever said:
I know perfectly well how the training mode works, thank you very much. It's still not necessary; you want to learn the match up that way, but you don't need it. There's plenty of 2Bs playing online, so practicing against her is no issue.
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I apologize for offending you then.

Still, there are other factors involved with this to make it a bigger issue than other or previous examples. If you've noticed a lot of the discussion about this character, it should at least be clear that she is not exactly similar in any way to the rest of the cast. To put it bluntly she does a lot of shit and has a lot of options. Telling someone to just "figure it out" is a tall order, maybe more so than any other character. If this were a valid point, we wouldnt need training mode in the first place but it has been around for a very long time.

Her absurd popularity means everyone is using her, so she's going to dominate the majority of my playtime. I dont consider that practice. Training mode and single player is practice, online matches are just that, matches. I dont want to walk into those blindly without some prior knowledge.

If we can understand concepts like CAS should be out of ranked matches for fairness. Or that characters need balance changes for fairness. Then we should also understand DLC characters should be available to study and learn in training for fairness. Particularly complicated ones.

Project Bokuho said:
Not to stereotype casual fans that don't buy DLC characters but...a lot of them are like that.
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I just dont think casuals will up and buy her only to learn the matchup and i also dont think training mode will stop them from buying her, especially since i'm only talking about a cpu controlled training dummy. I'm not even suggesting they're playable in training.

Although actually, doing this might help advertise a DLC character causing a player to purchase when they otherwise might not have. Especially if you consider people who dont play online.
 
Speaking to 2B generally, weren't there some patch notes (for the upcoming january patches I believe, but based on feedback from her limited release among the playtesters/pro, that would begin to pair down her offensive capability a little. Look, I definitely think there is a lot of balancing work to be done with her--she's just too top notch in too many tactical categories. Now, I spent a few days in training mode with her first, but nevertheless, I have to tell you I don't feel like I won my first fourteen matches in a row with her (and then went on to score several more similar streaks as I powered through the ranks) just by happenstance or sure skill. I'm a pretty experienced player at this point, but that's something I haven't previously accomplished in VI with legacy styles I've been playing for 10-20 years.

So I'm sympathetic to what HacknSlash said above, and appreciate the rational way it was put--but even though I think this situation needs work, I think it's also important to recognize that this is something that can be fixed with nerfs. Yes, she is going to need to be taken down a notch or two on the offense side of things, but I don't think her different combat flow is the problem. Adding new styles that add some new tricks that have never quite been seen before in a moveset is a hallmark of the franchise, and augments the very fabric of the game and of the franchise as a whole. 2B moves differently and as a consequence players are having to re-evaluate when it is safe to make a move. That's awesome, as far as I'm concerned, but really 2B is no more unexpected than say The Apprentice was; it was a similar reaction (and similarly understandable) when people first had to learn to deal with him and for a time, he seemed OP, but with enough experience, there were plenty of methods for boxing him into a corner.

In the present case, 2B may be more genuinely OP (certainly as top tier as anyone is at present), but that can be fixed by making her pay a cost in other respects for her mobility and fake-out potential. And such a process I'm certain has only just begun. And she is, after all, an excuse for Namco and Square to print money (and as long they keep the character/content train running, I'm on board). Balances can and should come along as the game continues, but there's a limited time frame to keep this all profitable enough that Project Soul is able to reconstitute as much of the SE-SCIII cast as possible--and, who knows, maybe even move on to IV. If in the meantime they want to balance their choices to lean more towards a risk of 2B being a little juiced for a couple of months, rather than risking the disappointment of players (many of them perhaps entirely new) who buy her but don't yet have the experience to make her work in competitive play, well...I'm not thrilled with it, but I understand it and I can certainly live with it for a while. There's an update just around the corner: whether I am remembering that bit about the patch notes correctly or not, I think 2B is likely to see the ugly side of the nerf bat in that and subsequent versions.

In the meantime, I for one like her unique flavour and can think back to many times where new characters, guests in particular, were initially met with frustration and protestations that they were "too different", but they almost always get embraced in time. I mean we've had: a lizard man, who most recently gained angel wings that appear and disappear at will and fire breath, all for no apparent reason (and in any event can skitter across the ground towards you at an alarming rate), a monster hunter from a high fantasy world who can set traps to limit your mobility, a character with a sentient bladed whip that can strike from any angle, including behind and bellow, a Hylian with a bow and bombs, a sadomasochistic sociopath who apparently trained at Cirque de Soleil, has pneumatics installed in his drill-claws, can rolly-polly himself and then blow up, and literally bends over backwards to avoid you blows. And then there's Yoshimitsu--what's Yoshimitsu's story again? He's a ninja, demon, robin hood bandit, cyborg--I mean I think a cyborg, since he has an inexplicably powered wooden limb of some sort. Magic cyborg? Ninja, demon, robin hood bandit, magic cyborg? And let's not even start getting into what he can do that no one else in the game can. The list goes on and on. It'll work out, trust me. And at the end of the day even if you think you'll never like seeing her in a match, just keep telling yourself "at least she's not Yoda." Now that was obnoxious!
 
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@AMillionHP @AriesWarlock
I'm not saying training mode isn't a good tool for learning the match up; just that there's other ways to do it. It boils down to personal preference.

For myself, I learn my mains' combos in training, and then fight online to learn match ups. Watching videos also helps.
 
@Rusted Blade
I see where you’re coming from and new styles and techniques are welcome.
But the difference between her and the apprentice is imagination and a players exposure to it, especially if you haven’t played Nier.

I’d expect a few telekinetic attributes with the Star Wars characters but most of their advantageous abilities won’t be available in the SC universe for obvious reasons.
But 2B seems to have been exempt from that and this is where the game’s ethos gets undermined.

I think it’s cool that they pay homage to her in such a way but she’s literally arrived with her house in her bag.

Force fields, ammunition, lasers, over extended attack patterns etc.

Iike I said before it’s not as simple as to say “learn the match up” she’s seems so fleshed out it’s the next step of having to learn the character.
And there are two things wrong with this.

1. She’s behind a paywall so you’d otherwise have to get Hardcore exposure in order to be aware of her tricks and setups, or pay to use her in practice Which kinda gives me a pay to win vibe.

2. Winning a match against a competent 2B player requires a disproportionate amount of attention that not only undermines how the game works for a character that won’t return, or time needed to improve the status of current said main.
It makes the ability of the rest of the cast look pretty lack luster.

And that’s the last thing SC needs right now, to be known for other IPs appart from its own.

New ideas I’m here for them but save it for new or existing in-house characters.
 
One of my mains in SF4 was Seth. This was strictly the vanilla version. I never played any of the later versions. Seth was the boss character they gave several moves from other characters. He was a lot of fun for me to play because he had everything. Projectiles, teleports, anti-air, wall jump, command throw, Dahlsim stretch limbs, dive kick. No single thing from him was broken but he was unnecessarilly nerfed into the ground every patch that came. It didnt matter that he had a major health handicap compared to anyone else on the cast. Say for example Sagat landed his Ultra, that is pretty much it for that round. Still the nerfs. It got so bad they even outright removed one of his stretch limbs and replaced it with a different animation.

This is definitely a similar style of character. Someone designed to do anything but without any obvious or clearly understood handicap. Its not going to end well. People dont tolerate what is different. The complaints will start pouring in when the initial high of 2B arriving wears off.

Concerning the issue with training mode, its absurd to expect someone to learn the matchup without it. You might as well select Inferno online. I'd feel more comfortable fighting that because at least that i can study and practice against.
 
AMillionHP said:
People dont tolerate what is different.
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Agreed. It's the one constant when it comes to fighting games. I've seen enough characters screwed because complainers call for nerfs on stuff that is as intended, can make those characters very boring to play.
 
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