Soul Calibur VI: General discussion

DanteSC3

[14] Master
I imagine Setsuka will have tons of cherry blossoms, enough to make Haohmaru blush.

I was kidding about fiery footsies Hwang. If he shoots flames from his toes, I’m out. Hwang’s purpose is being a grounded in reality practitioner of the style, making Han-myeong proud enough to want him as his son. Yun-seong is the wild one with the unnecessary flair.
 

WuHT

Premium Moderator
Setsuka's got a few moves where the umbrella opening is the last hit in a string preceded by a strike of the saya.
ie animations like her BT B+K:B , 22A+B A , should be JF only, and having those umbrella-JFs add to a running tally would be my first guess to her gimmick.

Secondly, the Hilde seems the last "grounded" new moveset since SC4. You've had Algol, Viola, Zwei, Azwel, Groh which are more fantasy than grounded.
Dampierre I'd say is more of a Dan hibiki so I don't even know where to slot him.

Hwang being a "fundamentals" type guy isn't necessarily a bad thing and brings some balance. I'm looking forward to the Devs polishing his attack animations, as some of his SC3 animations are horribly outdated.
 
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Raregroove

[04] Fighter
I think Hwang will have Hunting Hawk. I have no basis for this, just a feeling.

Whether he will have flaming footsies or some other gimmick or not though, who knows.
 

Rusted Blade

[11] Champion
Lol.

Soulcalibur 6.

Grounded in reality.
I get the mirth at the concept, really I do, but at the same time, clearly the series long ago came to a place where we grade on a curve with regard to what we call "grounded", per WuHT's comments immediately above and my own frequent into-the-wind entreaties that PS draw some more styles from actual historical weapons again (and characters from actual real world cultures, however two-dimensional and fictionalized the representation ends up), instead of going time after time to the unrestrained stream-of-consciousness decisions of their character designers, who these days seem to dwell perpetually at the intersection of anime, fantasy, and emo.

So in these terms, even someone like Voldo can be called comparably grounded. A super powered, quadruple-jointed gimp with blind monk senses and a subset of moves where he attacks with his junk, and yet somehow he still manages to feel much more based in reality than Azwel or Groh....
 
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masterROBOMAN

[11] Champion
SoulCalibur is never been about "grounded in reality"...

Never was, never been and never will!

Yes, the story is in a realistic setting of the 16th century. And, yes, I know that all fighting styles are based on real martial arts. but these are just references that went through a strong stylization to make everything look aesthetically pleasing. Sorry, but I am constantly annoyed that many require realism from SoulCalibur, although it was not taken as a basis. It's like demanding a healthy meal from a McDonald's burger!
 

genghis_chan

[11] Champion
SoulCalibur is never been about "grounded in reality"...

Never was, never been and never will!

Yes, the story is in a realistic setting of the 16th century. And, yes, I know that all fighting styles are based on real martial arts. but these are just references that went through a strong stylization to make everything look aesthetically pleasing. Sorry, but I am constantly annoyed that many require realism from SoulCalibur, although it was not taken as a basis. It's like demanding a healthy meal from a McDonald's burger!
Well they do have salads...
 

Rusted Blade

[11] Champion
SoulCalibur is never been about "grounded in reality"...

Never was, never been and never will!

Yes, the story is in a realistic setting of the 16th century. And, yes, I know that all fighting styles are based on real martial arts. but these are just references that went through a strong stylization to make everything look aesthetically pleasing. Sorry, but I am constantly annoyed that many require realism from SoulCalibur, although it was not taken as a basis. It's like demanding a healthy meal from a McDonald's burger!
Nobody "requires" a high level realism out of Soulcalibur, nor did anyone here say anything that remotely suggest that they do. No one could stay a fan of the franchise for long (let alone the decades some of us have been playing these games) without a very high tolerance of the absurd or outright asinine elements, be it in aesthetics or the franchise's silly adaptation on world history. But that doesn't mean we have to celebrate every additional change towards increasing anime stylization in the character designs as a good thing, or something not meriting criticism. It's not unreasonable, even for people who accept all of Soulcalibur's goofy conceits, to nevertheless feel that enough if enough with the magic users pulling energy weapons out of mid-air and super-sayain anime emos flailing about with impractical weapons, and to hope that maybe the next original character is just a guy from some actual historical culture (again, however two-dimensionally rendered) with an actual weapon that he uses vaguely like a person would use its real world equivalent. That is not an unreasonable or bizarre hope for you to get "annoyed" with, by any stretch of the imagination.
 

masterROBOMAN

[11] Champion
Nobody "requires" a high level realism out of Soulcalibur, nor did anyone here say anything that remotely suggest that they do. No one could stay a fan of the franchise for long (let alone the decades some of us have been playing these games) without a very high tolerance of the absurd or outright asinine elements, be it in aesthetics or the franchise's silly adaptation on world history. But that doesn't mean we have to celebrate every additional change towards increasing anime stylization in the character designs as a good thing, or something not meriting criticism. It's not unreasonable, even for people who accept all of Soulcalibur's goofy conceits, to nevertheless feel that enough if enough with the magic users pulling energy weapons out of mid-air and super-sayain anime emos flailing about with impractical weapons, and to hope that maybe the next original character is just a guy from some actual historical culture (again, however two-dimensionally rendered) with an actual weapon that he uses vaguely like a person would use its real world equivalent. That is not an unreasonable or bizarre hope for you to get "annoyed" with, by any stretch of the imagination.
Sorry, but are we talking about the same game? Because, SoulCalibur, which I have known since Dreamcast, has always been anime stylistic.

Siegfried, wielding a giant board, who also manages to pierce through him flesh... Maxi with the style of Elvis Presley... A huge number of cheerful and young girls dressed in very formal attire... Cervantes, which turns into a flying drill... Ivy and Voldo's clothes, which are sent to modern sexual hobbies... Kilik as a typical male protagonist of standard anime with shaolin monk mix up. Sorry, but somehow there are already too many anime elements that are in the series from the very first games. Even the illustrations for Soul Blade (Soul Edge) and SoulCalibur 1 look like a real anime or manga.

And, yes, I accepted Azwel and Groh as SoulCalibur characters, and I think these are well-designed characters.

Many call Groh a Emoboy? You know, I would be glad if all the emoboys were as pragmatic, restrained and rational as this Scandinavian guy! He does not set personal goals above his duty to the organization, but tries to correctly combine these tasks. Let him have pride and unfriendliness, but he is more than capable of normal communication with other people, let all the conversations be more pragmatic. And, yes, no matter how much you dislike serious boys with a low voice, the character of Groh is justified by place where he grew up, the Oval organization. . His hatred to "outsiders" is also justified by propaganda of the Oval organization. The same goes for his uniform. The Oval organization was created to resist a power of the Soul Edge, and, of course, when you encounter such otherworldly strength, you need not only to prepare, but also to advance the development forward. And, yes, regarding the "impracticality" of Groh's weapons. Since when are Double Blades considered less practical than, for example, RingBlade? Or bladed Tonfa? Or a whip sword? The Double Blade concept is considered one of the most classic edged weapons concepts. I am surprised why this style was introduced just now. Groh's inhuman power are justified by the fact that he is malfested, and this concept exists from the very beginning of the history of the game. The armor on Groh's left arm looks so "overthetop" because it was made by Azwel.

Azwel’s weapons called from the air look absurd, but that’s by design. They should look out of place because Azwel in itself should be the one who "does not play by the rules." He is a gamebreaker whose presence will mark a wrong changes and the beginning of the end. Moreover, his abilities are not taken from nowhere. During the game, we saw how Azwel himself developed his gloves, and, as a source of energy, used what exists in the series from the very beginning. Moreover, Azwel has an interesting eccentric personality, which, frankly, is unusual to see in this franchise, but feels fresh.

I know that new things may not look out of place at first glance, but if you look closer, Groh and Azwel are not so bad and banal characters as they seem at first glance. They were correctly inscribed with the setting of the game, taking into account its rules and elements. All their strengths and features are based on the fundamental elements of the series itself. In the end, it just works. And it is precisely thoughtfulness that distinguishes a good stylistic element from a bad one. Why does Zwei's summoning wolf still look out of place? Because it is not inscribed in setting. Nothing foreshadowed this wolf, and nowhere has it been explained how it works.

By the way, did you want to justify the Voldo's appearance? Well, his look plays only a narrative or symbolic role. This appearance exhibit his absurd loyalty to one person who's greatly influenced him. Ivy's design tells a different story. At first glance, this woman makes it clear that everything is under her’s control. However, despite her confidence, she herself is a slave to her own destiny. Maxi's appearance is not only referred to one famous singer, but also to the old-time Japanese delinquents. this appearance emphasizes his style, freedom, confidence and frivolity. Even the desire for revenge does not prevent him from enjoying his life as a free adventurer.

SoulCalibur is not stylized, sometimes absurd and ridiculous for nothing. This style was chosen in order to more effectively talk about the world and the characters, even through the usual battle in the Versus mode. The priority of symbolism is higher than realism in this game. And, yes, even those gimmicks of Soul Calibur 6 have their own symbolic meaning. I believe, all these effects are the sparks of a there's Souls that break out. The determination, expressiveness and will of these warriors simply cannot stand within them and turn into such representations of themselves.

Anime often presses on symbolism, sometimes forgetting about common sense. This is the strength and weakness of this media.
 

Heniek

[13] Hero
Personally I don't mind Groh's weapon that much in of itself. My gripe with his character is more about his anime rage mode with silly hair and teleports (tho Kilik also recieved rage mode so that's that) and the biggest issue I have is that he is supposed to be Scandinavian, yet he in no way resembles it. He looks more akin to a k-pop star than someone from northern europe which is even more jarring considering that we never had a character from that region.
Tho in the end I would have to conclude that he is not THAT much out of place considering how flashy, shiny and eye-candy the overall game is now. Makes me think that maybe it's a bit subjective from me because I much more enjoyed the aesthetics of the series during SB-SC3 times where everything was kinda whacky, but still I felt like it was a weapon based game, not magic based one.
Because of that I would love to have some more "grounded" designs in this game like someone with a sabre, or someone with a longsword or a spear. Character from a new region of the world like Africa, eastern Europe, Middle East. There is a lot of weapons and cultures the inspiration can be taken from
 
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Rusted Blade

[11] Champion
Sorry, but are we talking about the same game? Because, SoulCalibur, which I have known since Dreamcast, has always been anime stylistic.

Siegfried, wielding a giant board, who also manages to pierce through him flesh... Maxi with the style of Elvis Presley... A huge number of cheerful and young girls dressed in very formal attire... Cervantes, which turns into a flying drill... Ivy and Voldo's clothes, which are sent to modern sexual hobbies... Kilik as a typical male protagonist of standard anime with shaolin monk mix up. Sorry, but somehow there are already too many anime elements that are in the series from the very first games. Even the illustrations for Soul Blade (Soul Edge) and SoulCalibur 1 look like a real anime or manga.

And, yes, I accepted Azwel and Groh as SoulCalibur characters, and I think these are well-designed characters.

Many call Groh a Emoboy? You know, I would be glad if all the emoboys were as pragmatic, restrained and rational as this Scandinavian guy! He does not set personal goals above his duty to the organization, but tries to correctly combine these tasks. Let him have pride and unfriendliness, but he is more than capable of normal communication with other people, let all the conversations be more pragmatic. And, yes, no matter how much you dislike serious boys with a low voice, the character of Groh is justified by place where he grew up, the Oval organization. . His hatred to "outsiders" is also justified by propaganda of the Oval organization. The same goes for his uniform. The Oval organization was created to resist a power of the Soul Edge, and, of course, when you encounter such otherworldly strength, you need not only to prepare, but also to advance the development forward. And, yes, regarding the "impracticality" of Groh's weapons. Since when are Double Blades considered less practical than, for example, RingBlade? Or bladed Tonfa? Or a whip sword? The Double Blade concept is considered one of the most classic edged weapons concepts. I am surprised why this style was introduced just now. Groh's inhuman power are justified by the fact that he is malfested, and this concept exists from the very beginning of the history of the game. The armor on Groh's left arm looks so "overthetop" because it was made by Azwel.

Azwel’s weapons called from the air look absurd, but that’s by design. They should look out of place because Azwel in itself should be the one who "does not play by the rules." He is a gamebreaker whose presence will mark a wrong changes and the beginning of the end. Moreover, his abilities are not taken from nowhere. During the game, we saw how Azwel himself developed his gloves, and, as a source of energy, used what exists in the series from the very beginning. Moreover, Azwel has an interesting eccentric personality, which, frankly, is unusual to see in this franchise, but feels fresh.

I know that new things may not look out of place at first glance, but if you look closer, Groh and Azwel are not so bad and banal characters as they seem at first glance. They were correctly inscribed with the setting of the game, taking into account its rules and elements. All their strengths and features are based on the fundamental elements of the series itself. In the end, it just works. And it is precisely thoughtfulness that distinguishes a good stylistic element from a bad one. Why does Zwei's summoning wolf still look out of place? Because it is not inscribed in setting. Nothing foreshadowed this wolf, and nowhere has it been explained how it works.

By the way, did you want to justify the Voldo's appearance? Well, his look plays only a narrative or symbolic role. This appearance exhibit his absurd loyalty to one person who's greatly influenced him. Ivy's design tells a different story. At first glance, this woman makes it clear that everything is under her’s control. However, despite her confidence, she herself is a slave to her own destiny. Maxi's appearance is not only referred to one famous singer, but also to the old-time Japanese delinquents. this appearance emphasizes his style, freedom, confidence and frivolity. Even the desire for revenge does not prevent him from enjoying his life as a free adventurer.

SoulCalibur is not stylized, sometimes absurd and ridiculous for nothing. This style was chosen in order to more effectively talk about the world and the characters, even through the usual battle in the Versus mode. The priority of symbolism is higher than realism in this game. And, yes, even those gimmicks of Soul Calibur 6 have their own symbolic meaning. I believe, all these effects are the sparks of a there's Souls that break out. The determination, expressiveness and will of these warriors simply cannot stand within them and turn into such representations of themselves.

Anime often presses on symbolism, sometimes forgetting about common sense. This is the strength and weakness of this media.
Homie, nobody is going to blame you if you personally feel an attachment to the over-the-top style of the franchise--and again, not sure how many times I have to say it, but clearly we all possess at least a certain degree of familiar acceptance for that style, if not genuine affection for it. But accepting a work of art for what it is doesn't mean that you have to believe every single element of that continuity of work is spot-on and not due some fair criticism in places, especially where said art is a long-running work created by multiple different creative teams, each itself comprised of numerous individuals.

Nor does anybody here disagree that the series has always had one foot (at least) firmly planted in the absurd and in an exaggerated style that is drawn more from fantasy than realism. At the point that you interjected your comment about being annoyed with people who wanted some more "grounded" characters, the discussion here was already populated with comments about how such language must be approached in relative terms when we talk about this series. So it's a strawman argument to suggest that people who express reservations about the direction the designs have gone recently are just rejecting/rewriting the franchise's camp history, wholesale. That's clearly not what people are doing when they express that this or that character doesn't feel right.

Point is, any one-note "everything here is perfect, given the context" analysis doesn't really reflect to me a mindset of someone truly engaging with a given work rather than fanboying out over the latest iteration, if you'll forgive my bluntness. Well, I suppose that's not enitrely fair--you did point out Zwei's wolf as an element you don't care for, though for my money, looking at everything that comprises Zwei and picking just the wolf to complain about is just picking the low-hangign fruit for a design that is full of thoroughly risible design choices. Nothing is perfect and Soulcalibur--though I have loved it for nearly 25 years and can only expect that I'll be arguing about the style of the new fighters in Soulcalibur 11, 25 years from now--is certainly nowhere near perfect. And it's fine to nitpick the design choices made in any entry, with the obvious caveat that the developers don't owe us any justification for their artistic choices once they are made.

As to some of the particulars: I'm sorry, but I just don't have enough time in my life to deconstruct why Groh, Azwel, and the Aval organization are just so lame and goofy--that's just not a worthwhile use of time, given we are clearly miles apart on that subject and unlikely to come to a meeting of the minds. As to that entire cluster of bad visual design and atrocious storytelling I will say only this in rebutting your argument in support of them: just because someone spent a lot of time on putting together a detailed narrative justification for an addition to a longstanding work does not mean that they succeeded in making that story compelling, believable, engaging, or a good fit with what came before.I'm sorry, but you can type until your fingers are blistered and you will never sell me on the idea that these guys were a good use of the new original character slots for this game, or that their story, visual design, is anything other than groan (grohn?) inducing.

Okay, I'll say this much: Groh looks like someone was paid by Gerard Way to insert his 2010 self into a video game. Azwel looks like a former 1950's stage magician who is now better known as a sex offender. Azwel's moveset is...I mean, fine, given it is an obvious knock-off of Noctis, inspired by frustration that the character license was wasted on Tekken. I really don't think many fans were asking for yet another character in the mold of Necrid and Algol, but whatever--for what it is, it's fine. Groh, on the other hand...

There is nothing classic about the "double-bladed" staff weapon. There is a very good reason why, despite humanity spending tens of thousands of years developing and refining every possible tool to smash, stab, or slice eachother open, no culture ever adopted anything like this for serious warfare or personal combat: it's absolutely moronic. Now I don't expect every person to have had personal weapons training or have a detailed understanding of the biomehcanics of the human body, but the fact of the matter is that you need neither to understand why this idea is so, so very dumb. Just go unscrew the handle from your broom and then hold it in the center with one hand. Then just imagine someone smacking it with their own broom handle and trying to keep it steady. Intuitively you should sense how awkward and difficult that would be--nevermind trying to make such a weapon truly offensive or defensive, when every attempt to do either can be easily subverted by someone leveraging your decreased range of motion and the fact that striking one end of the blade will drive the other into your torso....

It's a truly idiotic concept. It was idiotic when it was "inspired" by Darth Maul and it's been idiotic every time every third pop-fantasy work has emulated it. There is literally nothing (no single motion the human body is capable of) that you can do with such a weapon gripped in the middle of it's center of gravity that you couldn't do much more efficiently (with greater range of motion, leverage, and increased options to follow up with afterwards) with half of that same weapon, just gripped at the end. It's absurd that Groh's weapon comes apart into two functional parts, because no real fighter who valued their life would ever put it back together again if they had the option of just using one or both of those swords.....which again, is why every historical culture has swords and no swords glued together at the hilt.

And yes, the ringblade is even worse/more impractical. And yes, I rolled my eyes even harder when it came along (or if I didn't I should have). But Tira's been around for ages, so she's grandfathered in. And I've said it before, and I will say it again: I'm sure in two or three games, Groh and Azwel will feel so old hat that it will be passe to bitch about them. But right now they are both silly and new, and more than deserving of their fair share of ridicule.

Anyway, TLDR: it's fine if the recent additions to the franchise sit quite well with you--of course it is! It's less justifiable to get "annoyed" with people who feel less than satisfied with those same additions, and hope that the series might gravitate back a little bit more towards its roots, when the new movesets were a little bit more evenly distrbuted between styles derived from actual weapons and the more mystical and over-teh-top stuff. There is absolutely nothing in that which is unreasonable.
 
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Ukkesh

[12] Conqueror
Homie, nobody is going to blame you if you personally feel an attachment to the over-the-top style of franchise--and again, not sure how many times I have to say it, but clearly we all possess at least a certain degree of comfort for that style, if not genuine affectation. But accepting a work of art for what it is (and especially accepting a long-running work created by multiple different creative, each comprised of numerous individuals) doesn't mean that you have to believe every single element of that continuity of work is spot-on and not due some fair criticism in places.

Nor does anybody here disagree that the series has always had one foot (at least) firmly planted in the absurd and in exaggerated style that is drawn more from fantasy art than realism. At the point that interjected your comment about being annoyed with people who wanted some more "grounded" characters, the discussion here was already populated with comments about how such terms must be approached in relative terms when we talk about this series, so it's a strawman argument to suggest that people who express reservations about the direction the designs have gone in are just rejecting the franchise's camp history wholesale. That's clearly not what people are doing when they express that this or that character doesn't feel right.

Point is, any one-note "everything here is perfect, given the context" analysis doesn't really reflect to me a mindset of someone truly engaging with a given work rather than fanboying out, if you'll forgive my bluntness. Well, I suppose that's not fair--you did point out Zwei's wolf as an element you don't care for, though for my money, looking at everything that comprises Zwei and picking just the wolf to complain about is just picking the low-hangign fruit for a design that is full of thoroughly risible design choices.

Nothing is perfect and Soulcalibur--though I have loved it for nearly 25 years and can only expect that I'll be arguing about the style of the new fighters in Soulcalibur 11, 25 years from now--is certainly nowhere near perfect. And it's fine to nitpick the design choices made in any entry, with the obvious caveat that the developers don't owe us any justification for their artistic choices once they are made. And I'm sorry, but I just don't have enough time in my life to deconstruct why Groh, Azwel, and the Aval organization are just so lame and goofy--that's just not a worthwhile use of time, given we are clearly miles apart on that subject and unlikely to come to a meeting of the minds. As to that entire cluster of bad visual design and atrocious storytelling I will say only this in rebutting your argument in support of them: just because someone spent a lot of time on putting together a detailed narrative justification for an addition to a longstanding work does not mean that they succeeded in making that story compelling, believable, engaging, or a good fit with the larger work.

I'm sorry, but you can type until your fingers are blistered and you will never sell me on the idea that these guys were a good use of the new original character slots for this game, or that their story, visual design, is anything other than groan (grohn?) inducing. Groh looks like someone was paid by Gerard Way to insert his 2005 self into a video game. Azwel looks like a former 1950's stage magician who is now better known as a sex offender. Azwel's moveset are...I mean, fine, given they are an obvious knock off of Noctis, inspired by frustration that the character license was wasted on Tekken. I don't think many fans were asking for another character in the mold of Necrid and Algol, but whatever--for what it is, its fine. Groh, on the other hand...

There is nothing classic about the "double-bladed" staff weapon. There is a very good reason why, despite humanity spending tens of thousands of years developing and refining every possible tool to smash, stab, or slice eachother open, no culture ever adopted anything like this for serious warfare or personal combat: it's absolutely moronic. Now I don't expect every person to have had personal weapons training or have a detailed understanding of the biomehcanics of the human body, but the fact of the matter is that you need neither to understand why this idea is so, so very dumb. Just go unscrew the handle from your broom and then hold it in the center with one hand. Then just imagine someone smacking it with their own broom handle and trying to keep it steady. Intuitively you should sense how awkward and difficult that would be--nevermind trying to make such a weapon truly offensive or defensive, when every attempt to do either can be easily subverted by someone leveraging your decreased range of motion and the fact that striking one end of the blade will drive the other into your torso....

It's a truly idiotic concept. It was idiotic when it was "inspired" by Darth Maul and it's been idiotic every time every third pop-fantasy work has emulated it. There is literally nothing (no single motion the human body is capable of) that you can do with such a weapon gripped in the middle of it's center of gravity that you couldn't do much more efficiently (with greater range of motion, leverage, and increased options to follow up with afterwards) with half of that same weapon, just gripped at the end. It's absurd that Groh's weapon comes apart into two functional parts, because no real fighter who valued their life would ever put it back together again if they had the option of just using one or both of those swords.....which again, is why every historical culture has swords and no swords glued together at the hilt.

And yes, the ringblade is even worse/more impractical. And yes, I rolled my eyes even harder when it came along (or if I didn't I should have). But Tira's been around for ages, so she's grandfathered in. And I've said it before, and I will say it again: I'm sure in two or three games, Groh and Azwel will feel so old hat that it will be passe to bitch about them. But right now they are both silly and new, and more than deserving of their fair share of ridicule.

Anyway, TLDR: it's fine if the recent additions to the franchise sit quite well with you--of course it is! It's less justifiable to get "annoyed" with people who feel less than satisfied with those same additions, and hope that the series might gravitate back a little bit more towards its roots, when the new movesets were a little bit more evenly distrbuted between styles derived from actual weapons and the more mystical and over-teh-top stuff. There is absolutely nothing in that which is unreasonable.
I like azwel cuz he has a cool goatee.
Also Grøh has a funny personality.
 

Dissidia

Premium Member
My only dislike for groh is that he face looks really jaggy or pixelated idk. When you hover over his character in selection screen his face looks kinda rough
 

Ukkesh

[12] Conqueror
My only dislike for groh is that he face looks really jaggy or pixelated idk. When you hover over his character in selection screen his face looks kinda rough
I get what you mean. It is a bit iffy at times. No one else really seems like that to me, though.