Soul Calibur VI: General discussion

[DanteSC3]

Agree to disagree, I believe that SoulCalibur VI was simply a way to get back in the good graces of the fans, to celebrate the history of the series by giving it a second chance to prosper with current tech, to build back to SoulCalibur V, and do it right this time. It's really not that crazy to think this may be the case.

 

[Starringrole]

Agree to disagree, I believe that SoulCalibur VI was simply a way to get back in the good graces of the fans, to celebrate the history of the series by giving it a second chance to prosper with current tech, to build back to SoulCalibur V, and do it right this time. It's really not that crazy to think this may be the case.

I agree it was a way to get back in the good graces, but I don't think heading straight to 5 is going to do that.
I believe the current story is their attempt at a remake of sorts with divergences (but mostly the same story as you say) however I think this will stop being the case come the Soulcalibur 3 period or 4 period.

I can't see 5 ever happening as it was originally planned (as much as I'd love it).
I do believe the events of 5 will play out but either VERY differently or they're going to happen early e.g. Raphael Nightmare in SC3.
I find it hard to see SC4/5 being intact in any truly meaningful way other than purely Algol.
To support the idea however, they did say they were willing bring back the SC5 characters which could mean we are very well heading a pretty recognizable timeline.

Though my bets are mainly the big changes coming in at SC3. I think a lot of people would be disappointed if a big changes didn't come around and things pretty much play out as we already know them.
I hope the hit a sweet spot with whatever they're doing because I want to see Viola's story fully realized.

 

[RyujiSakamoto]

I want to add that while Hilde is a safe, popular choice... we have yet to really break the “dam” when it comes to post SC3 timeline characters.

If any of the SC4 cast was already in I would say hilde was guaranteed. But because they seem to be very insistent on SC1-3 characters for now I will say That I don’t believe hilde is in. This all depends on who the first dlc character is.

As of now, 2B is the only character who kinda popped out of nowhere, but she has no story chronicle.
Tira was cut from the base game and would be off in her own story like Talim, Zasalamel, Raphael, etc.
Cass and Amy had little seeds planted where they could have more story.

Now we need to see if say, Yun seong is dlc because he would be basically popping out of nowhere. libra of souls was a very quick reference and honestly its fairly easy to miss it if you don’t get the right quest.

 

[DanteSC3]

@Starringrole I'm not saying go straight back to SoulCalibur V, but with Raphael and Amy teasing their SoulCalibur V story, it's practically guaranteed that that story is going to come back in some form or fashion. I am more than on board with the idea that Raphael becomes Nightmare at the end of SoulCalibur II events instead of Zasalamel having to reanimate some random unimportant corpse to be Nightmare for the SoulCalibur III events. It's far more interesting if Nightmare is someone we know, and I'm not even really sure why they didn't go this way in the first place, since it seemed like Raphael was getting the role of new hero for SoulCalibur II, being the canon destroyer of Soul Edge, and yet tragically was corrupted himself, and yet... somehow? didn't become Nightmare, but instead became a vampire-like entity with the ability to create thralls. It's... strange, to say the least.

But then, if Raphael becomes Nightmare for SoulCalibur III events, then Amy would need to become Viola sooner than SoulCalibur V, too, because when Raphael is brought back to life, then we'll need him to be tracking Amy and not able to find her, due to her now being Viola, to hit that story beat. So this could be going on when Algol rises, during the events of SoulCalibur IV. The next big question becomes Z.W.E.I. -- and if you're me, and you believe that Grøh and he are one in the same, then that means that Grøh will be put to death during the events of SoulCalibur III, and then be reborn with the wolf spirit and transform into Z.W.E.I. -- who I believe is Amy's mystery travel companion, because otherwise, how is he going to be linked to Viola in time?

If we are spicing up SoulCalibur III and SoulCalibur IV by intertwining the existing events with the SoulCalibur V subplots, then that would be a way to build back to SoulCalibur V. It didn't/doesn't have to be an exact copy, I'm just saying, whatever the means to get there, we will get back to SoulCalibur V eventually, as evidenced by SoulCalibur VI, but they now have the opportunity to do it without alienating the fanbase by axing our beloved characters.

While this does mean we may never again be graced with Lady Natsu's presence, it also means we'll avoid crossing paths with Xiba and Leixia... so maybe a fair trade, all things considered. And we might not get back to Pyrrha and Patroklos as playable characters, either, for similar reasons. But if they're able to give the cast members SoulCalibur IV and before the love and attention they need, along with providing some new foils along the way (such as Azwel), then it can be done right in a way that pleases everyone. That's what I'm getting at.

--------------------------------

@Dissidia The reason that 2B doesn't have a Soul Chronicle is explained in her trailer. Her actual story takes place in her time, thousands of years into the future, where Ivy still lives, because she's immortal. That's... really all there is to her story, she doesn't exist in the same time as the rest of the cast, so there is no story to tell. It goes without saying that everyone else added will, in all likelihood, have a story. Haohmaru possibly may not, but I don't see why he couldn't, since they gave Geralt one. Geralt and Haohmaru fit the setting, 2B does not, and so it fits.

Hwang, Setsuka, and Aeon all definitely have stories to tell, and would reasonably have Soul Chronicles for this. Rock too, to tie in to Aeon (their stories are linked, much like some other pairings of stories in Soul Chronicle), and Yun-seong can definitely backpack off Hwang's story, much like Cassandra, setting up his appearance for SoulCalibur II story events. Li Long is the hardest choice here, because he was presumed dead between SoulBlade and SoulCalibur III, and disappeared again until New Legends of Project Soul confirmed that he survived the time skip. Li Long would be all new story, I'm sure, but ties in to Taki.

Absolutely agree that Soulcalibur IV characters are too far removed to be included in the SoulCalibur VI story, though. They'd have to stretch a lot for them.

 

[Rusted Blade]

Agree to disagree, I believe that SoulCalibur VI was simply a way to get back in the good graces of the fans, to celebrate the history of the series by giving it a second chance to prosper with current tech, to build back to SoulCalibur V, and do it right this time. It's really not that crazy to think this may be the case.

Well, just to refocus things momentarily on the fact that we probably agree on more than that we disagree here (other than as to the quality of the story, but that's a whole other can of worms!) I do believe that its not just possible but likely that many events, maybe even the balance of them, are going to play themselves out the same, or with just slight variations. There is going to be plenty of fan service/playing off of expectations about character dynamics. What I'm saying in the present discussion is that, the theory that we are essentially in a closed loop has been expressly debunked by the narrator of the story and the nature of Phantom Zone Cassie's appearance and Cassie's soul chronicle--which, no matter how you slice it, seems to depart from the "original timeline" in at least some details.

I think you should also remember that PS is not a stable studio, but an ad-hoc team that assembles whenever Namco greenlights a Soul game. As such, it has higher than normal shake-ups in development staff (including lead designers and senior creative staff) between entries. As such, even -if- (against all evidence the further we get into the plot) a complete remake/closed loop was intended here, it would never survive multiple entries. Other teams would inherit the time travel plot and most would be inclined to use it in the way time travel is typically presented in fiction: repeating the past leaves it more or less completely malleable to your new decisions. Indeed, all precedent in the series for how time travel works (SCV) represents this as the case. Your way of viewing the plot has the benefit of being a much more rational take on the concept of time travel; indeed the idea that a time traveler could not alter the past is considered a prerequisite by most physicists willing to address the notion in empirical terms.

But it takes real finesse to do a story based on such a fatalistic concept, and it tends to go over like a lead balloon with the average audience (try searching "endless eight haruhi suzumiya" if you can handle some hardcore nerd raging--the fact that the salt is completely undeserved in that instance doesn't change the fact). Because most audiences have little training in physics or ontology and don't appreciate the elegance of the concept of a closed time loop. Time travel, to the average media consumer (be it movies or games) is about branching timelines and being able to manipulate them in "kewl" ways--paradoxes, inconsistencies, and shit tons of "say what now?" nonsense be damned: if you're gonna be able to time travel, you get to bring Chuck Berry into the past, screw your grandma and either prevent or hasten armageddon, thems the rules. Audiences by and large do not like being reminded of the fact that the immutable natural laws of the universe deny the existence of their free will as an empirical matter, and thus they mostly do not like fatalistic stories (as an intuitive matter, even if they don't understand all the implications). Even those who might feel that this is an acceptable and interesting concept for a work to explore may still find that it usually plays out in a bleak fashion in fiction. But Soulcalibur's fanbase? And writers? Come on, homiette, time travel was only ever going to be a vehicle to explore the vaguely defined "willpower is all" theme of the series.

 

[ElegantRaven]

If we get a SCVII (increasingly likely at this point), then yes, it's unarguable that they will revisit certain plot elements of V. Well, more likely they would be more prevalent in VIII, but Amy's chronicle suggested to me Viola might be popping up sooner that we would have expected. Retelling it in its entirety though? That would be a terrible business decision for them. Patroklos, Pyrrha, Natsu, Leixia and Xiba are all wildly unpopular characters in comparison to their predecessors, so unless they were to include all of these characters in the game along with Sophitia/Taki/Xianghua/Kilik etc, it's not happening. Every choice they've made with SC6 shows to me they learned from the massive mistakes they made with 5. And sure, you could say since we're in the era of singular fighting games lasting for years due to DLC characters and season passes, they may be able to fit a ton of characters in, but I just don't see a game where they're able to fit all of these characters in together in the way you want them to, Dante. It screams unrealistic to me.
If I may ask, what exactly is it about the original story that is so important to you? I mean, I always enjoyed reading up about the lore as a kid too, but the narrative as a whole is just a mess; to be expected, for a fighting game. I think changes from the original timeline would do better if they wish to tell any kind of comprehensive story. There's a lot of untapped potential in certain characters and I feel like just doing a retelling would do a disservice to characters like Talim, Mina, Yun Seong etc...because they were underused in the previous narrative, and completely irrelevant to the overarching plot line. Surely changes to accommodate all characters within their untapped potential would be better than just a flat out retelling?
And yes, I'm aware SCVI has for the most part been a complete retelling, just with more detail and context. MK9 was very close to the story of MK1-3 in its story mode too; didn't stop MKX from moving extremely far from MK4. I personally feel that SCVI was just them paying homage to the original stories of the early Soul Calibur games before they begin going down the route of drastic changes.

 

[DanteSC3]

try searching "endless eight haruhi suzumiya" if you can handle some hardcore nerd raging--the fact that the salt is completely undeserved in that instance doesn't change the fact

I'm more than aware of Haruhi and the infamous Endless Eight. I watched it live as it was airing. I'm allll over that. But I loved Endless Eight, so yeah.

I also love time travel stories, and the different ways it can / has been done. And I vastly prefer a realistic interpretation, or at least, an interpretation that is within the bounds of some sort of rational structure of ideas, than one that is just pure fantasy, for no other reason than mindless nonsense. But you probably figured that out already.

we probably agree on more than that we disagree

Generally, yes, but I'm just saying put aside our back and forth about how the future is going to be, because it's not really getting anywhere. There's nothing that will change my mind other than it actually happening, which means I won't be swayed until we get SoulCalibur VII. It's rather pointless to keep at it.

If we get a SCVII (increasingly likely at this point), then yes, it's unarguable that they will revisit certain plot elements of V. Well, more likely they would be more prevalent in VIII, but Amy's chronicle suggested to me Viola might be popping up sooner that we would have expected. Retelling it in its entirety though? That would be a terrible business decision for them. Patroklos, Pyrrha, Natsu, Leixia and Xiba are all wildly unpopular characters in comparison to their predecessors, so unless they were to include all of these characters in the game along with Sophitia/Taki/Xianghua/Kilik etc, it's not happening. Every choice they've made with SC6 shows to me they learned from the massive mistakes they made with 5. And sure, you could say since we're in the era of singular fighting games lasting for years due to DLC characters and season passes, but I just don't see a game where they're able to fit all of these characters in together in the way you want them to, Dante. It screams unrealistic to me.

SoulCalibur VII could either be SoulCalibur II, SoulCalibur III, and SoulCalibur IV rolled into one game, setting up SoulCalibur V events, so that SoulCalibur VIII would be the 17 years that follow leading up to and including SoulCalibur V, along with SoulCalibur V events, or SoulCalibur VII could split some of the inbetween. Though as @Rusted Blade says, it's possible that this may not be able to stand the test of three games, unless Okubo directs all three and enforces this with an iron fist worthy of Harada-senpai. Amy's foreshadowing doesn't really put a concrete date on when she'll become Viola, I don't think. That depends on how quickly Raphael's story moves, and what exactly Azwel is doing, so we'll find out in SoulCalibur VII for sure, what our expectations should be. The alternative is that SoulCalibur VII will utilize SoulCalibur V events interwoven in with the other games' events.

Even though I do like Natsu a lot, and I don't hate Patroklos and Pyrrha as much as a lot of people do, I do agree that overall, the kids and the time skip were a mistake, that they didn't establish it correctly, and there's a lot of problems with cutting out beloved characters for copy replacements that aren't all that interesting, or if they were interesting, not explaining them well enough where they could be interesting. That's why the A model I mentioned above would be better, if they did contextualize and ease into the new generation, and keep both old and new, getting over their fear of older women.

As for too many characters and not being able to fit them all in, I just point to Tekken and say if they can do it, there's no reason SoulCalibur can't either. SoulCalibur VI is definitely a revival, mechanics-wise, so these characters had a lot more work put into them, but if SoulCalibur VII is mostly the same, then there should be no problems porting everyone over to SoulCalibur VII, and only adding more without taking away.

If I may ask, what exactly is it about the original story that is so important to you? I mean, I always enjoyed reading up about the lore as a kid too, but the narrative as a whole is just a mess; to be expected, for a fighting game. I think changes from the original timeline would do better if they wish to tell any kind of comprehensive story. There's a lot of untapped potential in certain characters and I feel like just doing a retelling would do a disservice to characters like Talim, Mina, Yun Seong etc...because they were underused in the previous narrative, and completely irrelevant to the overarching plot line. Surely changes to accommodate all characters within their untapped potential would be better than just a flat out retelling?

I don't think you understand me fully if you have this concern with what I'm saying. They have given characters who didn't have spotlight in SoulCalibur I their moments of importance and cohesion in the narrative with SoulCalibur VI, so if they continue this trend for SoulCalibur VII, then they will do the same for the rest of the characters through the rest of the stories, it's an expectation that they will continue to offer the same level of support. Meaning people aren't going to be left out, they will be all-inclusive, given new development that works with the canon, just like was done in this game. It's not "just a retelling", it's a retelling doing justice to the story and giving it its full realized potential.

As for why it's important to me, it's because I love this series for many reasons, and the story and characters are among those reasons. I've come to understand that a lot of the intricacies of these characters were ignored by a more than sizeable portion of the fanbase, who took the games at face value, didn't do the lore deep diving, and all that, and it's my wish for everyone to share the love and admiration for the characters as I do, and this form of narrative storytelling introduced in SoulCalibur VI is allowing that to happen, for everyone to be included. It's my favorite thing about SoulCalibur VI.

And yes, I'm aware SCVI has for the most part been a complete retelling, just with more detail and context. MK9 was very close to the story of MK1-3 in its story mode too; didn't stop MKX from moving extremely far from MK4. I personally feel that SCVI was just them paying homage to the original stories of the early Soul Calibur games before they begin going down the route of drastic changes.

I just don't know why it has to be that way, or why people even want it to be that way. SoulCalibur II and beyond have memorable stories and characters, and giving the underdeveloped like Setsuka a second chance to actually be developed and relevant to the story is a great opportunity that shouldn't be squandered. If they have to write a brand new story, that's extra effort that isn't necessarily warranted, when they already have a skeleton for a story that's already written, just needing to fill in the gaps, like SoulCalibur VI did, seems like it would be the way to go, to make development smooth.

 

[SSfox]

Any infos if Season 2 characters will have their Soul Chronicles? That would be so amazing if it's the case!!

 

[Ukkesh]

So, I was labbing Cass today, and I somehow managed to whip out a 143 damage combo (156 with SC) and yeah, it's kinda specific, but I can see pro players whipping out madness comebacks if they use it.

Imma post it here and in the Cass soul arena.

It's a combo with very specific requirements, but 143 damage is nothing to sneeze at. You need to be at low health, and be just before guard crush, because you need the two lethal hits for it to work perfectly.

The combo is:

(While crouching) LH8K_8B+K_LH(A,B OR K)_CE

Not really sure if it's really clear, but I'm pretty sure I got the notation right, not exactly a competitive player, so uh tell me if I'm wrong.

 

[genghis_chan]

Reading the name Viola in the last posts triggered my PTSD ...

 

[Klimat]

Spoiler

Theoretically, Cassandra has the knowledge to bring about some sort of change. That is, if anyone believes her. She didn’t do anything in her Soul Chronicle to change anything yet, though, as far as we know. Astral Chaos Cassandra told her what happens in the future, but it remains to be seen what actually she will do to stop it.

Spoiler

Technically Cassandra just got blessings from three different Greek gods all at once, which I'm pretty sure was not the case in the previous timeline. That's a significant power up that should prove to be useful.
Also the only thing she really absolutely has to do to prevent the dark future is to make sure Tira gets her Ending B instead of Ending A during SC3 events, which should not be too hard to orchestrate:

So in the new timeline we can get Tira Ω instead of Pyrrha Ω and this time we are not even gonna need a time jump 17 years into the future for it to happen.

P.S. Considering closed time loops, just take a look at Pat's adventures in time in SC5 where he was able to successfully change the past exactly the way he wanted no problem. That's a pretty huge hint on how time travel works in SoulCalibur.

 

[limejuice]

Any infos if Season 2 characters will have their Soul Chronicles? That would be so amazing if it's the case!!

I think they probably will. Wish they gave 2B one, don't know why hers is missing.

 

[Nyte]

Agree to disagree, I believe that SoulCalibur VI was simply a way to get back in the good graces of the fans, to celebrate the history of the series by giving it a second chance to prosper with current tech, to build back to SoulCalibur V, and do it right this time. It's really not that crazy to think this may be the case.

Are you still trying to argue this not being a reboot?

 

[Crimzin]

The reason why the changes have been minimal so far is because you don't fix what ain't broke. The mess in story doesn't come until later in the series, so the changes will be bigger more apparent as the series progresses. They'll change some things and keep others the same. Fans wouldn't be happy if almost everything was thrown out like in SCV.

 

[Nyte]

 

[sytus]

Got to be honest, the core plot of SC5 story is good but it's execution and spiritual downgrade characters just left a massive pile of shit on it. The idea that Patroklos and Pyrrha overcome the will of the spirit swords with their own will is an endearing one and is nice progression of Algol's will to wield the spirit sword without it consuming him from SC4. This might sound sacrilege to the story board fans but if this silver age ever gets a retelling then the new kids need to have their personalities changed to make them more likable and interesting, specifically Patroklos because he's a massive unlikable cunt in story mode.

If we aren't going to do a retelling of the silver age then I'm more than happy to just have the golden age end with the story events of SC4 as it's pretty much the climax of the saga for all the characters. If SC7 covers the events of SC2, SC3 and SC4 then I don't know what SC8 could follow up on, Project Soul can't keep on recycling the struggles just to keep characters relevant, character arcs must end for all at some point.

 

[TresDias]

Fair enough, and true. Cassandra's profile taken by itself isn't clear, but when you mix it with Sophitia's, it does frame the event as taking place in 1590. Which also ties into Crimzin's question, below. The Owl Shield didn't see use after SoulBlade, since Sophitia already had replaced it with the Elk Shield by SoulCalibur I. Though this does raise an interesting question, however... are there two Omega Swords? And if so, why? Cassandra's sword was differentiated as Digamma Sword starting with SoulCalibur III, though it looks practically identical to the Omega Sword. Kind of a weird discrepancy all of a sudden.

Hm, Sophie's profiles specify that Rothion made her a new sword & shield set for her later journeys from that ore Hephaestus gave them (Rothion references this in Cassandra's Soul Chronicle as well) -- so perhaps Sophitia was initially still calling the new weapon the Omega Sword, as it was based on the original?

Most likely, either she or Cassandra changed the name of one of the swords at some point.

Generally, yes, but I'm just saying put aside our back and forth about how the future is going to be, because it's not really getting anywhere. There's nothing that will change my mind other than it actually happening, which means I won't be swayed until we get SoulCalibur VII. It's rather pointless to keep at it.

Yeah, I've already accepted this.

Which is fine by me.

I'm pretty confident in my current expectations about how things are going to progress from here, and my reasoning for those expectations -- and more importantly, I know you'll acknowledge I was right (if that's what happens) when the time comes. So I'm not overly worried about changing your mind.

And if nothing else, it guarantees one of us the opportunity to say "I told you so! Eat it!" (in a friendly manner) down the road.

SoulCalibur VII could either be SoulCalibur II, SoulCalibur III, and SoulCalibur IV rolled into one game, setting up SoulCalibur V events, so that SoulCalibur VIII would be the 17 years that follow leading up to and including SoulCalibur V, along with SoulCalibur V events, or SoulCalibur VII could split some of the inbetween. Though as @Rusted Blade says, it's possible that this may not be able to stand the test of three games, unless Okubo directs all three and enforces this with an iron fist worthy of Harada-senpai. Amy's foreshadowing doesn't really put a concrete date on when she'll become Viola, I don't think. That depends on how quickly Raphael's story moves, and what exactly Azwel is doing, so we'll find out in SoulCalibur VII for sure, what our expectations should be. The alternative is that SoulCalibur VII will utilize SoulCalibur V events interwoven in with the other games' events.

Even though I do like Natsu a lot, and I don't hate Patroklos and Pyrrha as much as a lot of people do, I do agree that overall, the kids and the time skip were a mistake, that they didn't establish it correctly, and there's a lot of problems with cutting out beloved characters for copy replacements that aren't all that interesting, or if they were interesting, not explaining them well enough where they could be interesting. That's why the A model I mentioned above would be better, if they did contextualize and ease into the new generation, and keep both old and new, getting over their fear of older women.

You've probably guessed it right with this: "The alternative is that SoulCalibur VII will utilize SoulCalibur V events interwoven in with the other games' events."

I think I'm expecting removal of the time skip to be the biggest change. Elements of SCV that get reused (e.g. Raphael as Nightmare) will probably be highlighted earlier in history, closer to 1590/1591 while we simply don't ever play as Natsu and the rest of her generation.

From a gameplay perspective, we really won't lose anything if they go this route. Natsu and the others were effectively clones of the classic characters while Viola and Z.W.E.I.'s supernatural nature entails that we could get to play as them in the current time period without breaking the fiction (this is pretty much guaranteed already in the case of Amy/Viola).

We can still have the whole cast up through SCV (in terms of play style) even without incorporating the time skip.

Does this sort of mockery come effortlessly to you or do you have to really work at it?

 

[AriesWarlock]

I... want Patroklos back. He was such a smug bastard!

 

[Rex Dart]

Hwang with Yun-seong's moveset would be a travesty worse than Xiba's existence.

Small objection: I always thought Yun-Seong's crane stance would fit Hwang better than Yun. I'd be fine with Hwang borrowing it and adapting some of its follow-ups to his own style. But I absolutely agree that his core moveset should be preserved. I really want another gimmick-less moveset like Mitsurugi's or Xianghua's.

If I may ask, what exactly is it about the original story that is so important to you? I mean, I always enjoyed reading up about the lore as a kid too, but the narrative as a whole is just a mess; to be expected, for a fighting game. I think changes from the original timeline would do better if they wish to tell any kind of comprehensive story. There's a lot of untapped potential in certain characters and I feel like just doing a retelling would do a disservice to characters like Talim, Mina, Yun Seong etc...because they were underused in the previous narrative, and completely irrelevant to the overarching plot line.

Am I the only one who likes the open-ended, "what if?" nature of classic fighting game stories? The "overarching" plot is whatever. Fighting games just need an interesting premise/setting and memorable/likable characters. Spoiler: The overarching plot is always going to be "what will set up a sequel?" The story content that's actually cool to me is learning more about the characters and then seeing different scenarios play out with those characters. The coolest character moments in SoulCalibur history were in the endings of SC1~3, and most of them are non-cannon. So what? They're still memorable satisfying and effective, which is what a good story should be. The shift towards telling a single "comprehensive" story is stupid for fighting games.

 

[sytus]

Yun-Seong's crane stance would fit Hwang better than Yun

I hope this never happens. Hwang needs his own, Yun Seong crane stance needs to remain his and his alone.