Talim vs. the rest of the SC4 cast

[Dogysamich]

yeah you wish 8B solved problems like that. XD

 

[ruinandchaos85]

It would indeed be awesome if AS A+K RO'd. I wish it had more pushback in general. That would give us more options on block.

 

[MasudSabr]

AS A+K does Ring Out... yourself.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Since the topic was brought up recently about Talim's matchups, here's Jaxel's original analysis of quite a few of them. I just quoted it to save everyone the trouble of having to backtrack. I added my own opinions to this as well. Any number that was .5 I rounded up or down according to my opinions since, well... you can't win half a match.

Here is what I would say... matches out of 10... this is how I feel Talim stands up...
( a 5 out of 10, would imply that she would win half the matches... 50% if it were )

0 - Algol... This is just an impossible matchup, and we all know it...

I reserve my opinion of this match until I understand fighting Algol better in general. If it does in fact prove to be a lost cause, then this would be my only argument in regards to a ban. (And I don't do ban wagons)

I mean maybe the 2D fighting game community will laugh at me for saying this, but I really can't agree with having a character matchup be this bad. You shouldn't have to switch characters just to put up a fight even with all the imbalance issues in this game.

Yes, you could still beat an Algol player with Talim depending on skill level, but as this type of discussion is based around the criteria that both players are of equal skill and ability, that point is irrelevant. Any study of this matchup and opinions are welcome.

But for now I'll say: 10-0 Algol

1 - Kilik... This is all dependant on how the Kilik is played. The way most people are playing Kilik, is at close range with Asura Spamming. Talim actually has a GOOD chance against this. However, if the Kilik player learns how to abuse more of his ranged attacks and forgets about Asura completely, then Talim no longer stands a chance.

This I can agree with almost completely. Though Kilik isn't extremely deadly at range, it's annoying to get in on him. Still, because Kilik doesn't punish too hard under -20 disadv. you don't have to worry about everything being a huge risk. It would be closer to 8-2 if he spaces right, but about 6-4 if he opts not to.

I'll compromise with: 7-3 Kilik

Edit: the more I play against Kiliks, the more I'm starting to think this match might not even be this bad. I think he's harder to fight than Mina, but then not as hard as Ivy. 22K is good against Kilik at close/mid range, particularly to his right. Beats Asura, all options from BP, and WS B as well as closes distance from far range. (Monument GI's it though it's hard to time) If Talim makes her way in patiently, she really shouldn't have a whole lot of problems.

2.5 - Voldo... Voldo is just broke, he is who I would put as #1 in the tier lists. He has punish game, speed, damage, range, priority, is extremely safe, and an amazing BT A+B that auto-GIs everything. Talim just doesn't stance a chance against a Voldo player who knows what they are doing. His attacks knock Talim out of EVERYTHING, wind leap, wind sault, wind charmer, Voldo stops it all with little to no risk.

Voldo is probably her hardest matchup aside from Algol for all the reasons mentioned. Talim has to be very specific with everything she does and when. Whereas Voldo can pretty much do what he wants a lot of the time, particularly from Blind Stance.

I'll say: 8-2 Voldo

3 - Ivy... Just like Kilik, an Ivy player can pretty much throw out 90% of their moves and stick to core spacing game.

I agree with the numbers, but not so much the analysis. Ivy can space Talim extremely well in Whip, but without a decent safe backstepping move it's hard to get far enough away to do so. Conversely, her Sword stance is actually harder for Talim to deal with because Ivy can stop a lot of her moves cold so easily. Not to mention she still outranges Talim in close.

Still: 7-3 Ivy

3 - Sophitia... This sister isn't as good as the other this time around, but there is one thing she has over Cassandra that still provides enough push against Talim... range. She's got the speed with her range, as well as decent enough tracking to stop Talim's so called "evasive" properties.

This one I disagree with. Granted my experience against Sophie is limited to one or two people, aside from 236B, Sophitia doesn't have a real move to shut Talim down. This will cause Talim to have to be safer and less aggressive, but not overwhelmed.

In my opinion: 6-4 Sophitia

3.5 - Lizardman... He's top tier... end of story.

Not sure about this one. A more in depth explanation as to why would be appreciated here.

For now I'll say: 6-4 Lizardman

Edit: I've been having some tough times fighting against Lizardman, personally. Seems like his damage output is really good. Crawl stance is decent but not overwhelming for Talim, since her 22K gets around anything from crawl. Lizardman 66A is gold, and he seems to have just enough backstep in certain moves to be out of range for Talim's close range moves. He also has hitbox issues that are a real pain for her in close sometimes. (throws randomly whiff as does the second hit of 66A, etc...) He is launch punishable on quite a few things though.

3.5 - Mitsurugi... Against Mitsurugi, all a Talim player can really do is guess. Thats all most characters can do, his nitaku game is just that good. The problem of course, is once Talim guesses right, where does she go from there? She doesn't have the ability to punish that which most people find launchable.

Talim isn't good at block punishing and unfortunately can't take advantage of one of Mitsu's biggest flaws. I don't know much else about the matchup so I'll take Jaxel's word for it for now.

I'll say: 6-4 Mitsurugi

Edit: After testing some things. Talim actually can punish Mitsurugi better than I thought originally. 2KB, 66BB, and RLC A, can all be 236B punished, but even if you can't react that fast you still have 44AA, 2A+B for over 50 damage. Sure it's not Voldo/Sophie type damage, but it's still pretty nice. 22K is decent here too to avoid low/vertical mid mixups if used timely and sparingly.

3.5 - Cassandra... Cassie has speed, damage, priority, spacing and nitaku... everything Talim doesn't.

Don't see anything to disagree with here.

I'll round this one to: 6-4 Cassandra

3.5 - Xianghua... Even though what gives Xianghua her advantage over Talim is the same as Raphael's 44B, her 44B is just that much better. Its an instant back-step evade-punish attack that avoids almost all of Talim's options, even in those rare cases where Talim is actually at advantage. She also has a whole slew of other moves that work on Talim as well, so she doesn't have to resort to only 44B... thats just the icing on the cake.

I feel as though Xianghua's advantages over Talim tend to be overrated at times. 44B is a pain, but doesn't shut Talim down completely. It does TC though so it's just a little bit more than irritating. Her AAs can punish stuff most characters can't, though. Still, I think they both match up rather evenly otherwise. Both have similar speed and evasiveness, both have a good balance of verticals and anti-step, only X has much better lows, and thus, better mixup opportunites. I was tempted to say 5-5, but realistically X has a slight edge.

So I'll say: 6-4 Xianghua

4 - Hilde... Hilde suffers from the same problems against Talim as Astaroth. Even though she clearly has the range advantage, the speed of her ranged attacks nullify many of her options against a Talim player who knows how to abuse Wind Charmer stance. The redeeming factor in all this is simple enough that Hilde's short ranged attacks still have more range than Talim... And if Talim (or any character) eats a single hit, its a free ring out.

No arguments here for this assessment... the safer and more deliberate Talim plays the better. Also, Talim is probably the hardest for her launch since she TJs so much. Still, the doom combo should never be underestimated. So even though I personally feel it's slightly closer to 7-3, I'll concede to leave it as is.

Still: 6-4 Hilde

4 - Setsuka... She's faster and has more damage. Even though she may be within Talim's range, she simply out-paces her in every aspect.

That and her TC ability just hurts Talim a lot since 80% of Talim's safe horizontals are highs. Block punishing is near-essential to fighting a good Setsuka and Talim just doesn't shine in this area. I'll leave this as Jaxel put it at 6-4.

Still: 6-4 Setsuka

4 - Taki... Same thing as Setsuka.

this matchup is a lot more even than I used to think, so I can agree with the numbers here. Taki's AA punishes and general safeness against Talim are annoying, but not much else is.

Still: 6-4 Taki

4 - Yoshimitsu... Yoshimitsu may be good, but there is nothing Talim-specific that he has to kill her... What he's got works on everybody, not just Talim.

I'll just take his word for it here since I don't know the matchup that thoroughly myself.

Still: 6-4 Yoshimitsu

Edit: Yoshimitsu has good lows, and therefore has great mixups. But the real problem is damage output. It's really sad when all of Talim's hard work and combos are equal in damage to a single throw from Yoshi. Still, I don't feel this match is all that skewed in his favor.

4.5 - Astaroth... Although Astaroth has the same range game as Kilik, he suffers because its simply not as fast. His lack of speed gives Talim a 50% chance to get in. Sure, if the Talim player guesses wrong, then she's fucked... but at least its not a lost cause.

Astaroth isn't hard to get in on, but then, Astaroth doesn't need to keep her out anyway. If you can break throws often and know when to duck, this match really isn't all that bad. If he can't throw her, it'll be tough for him to beat her in close. Bullrush can be WCed almost on reaction depending on range. Damage is the real problem here.

For that reason I'll round down to: 6-4 Astaroth

4.5- Cervantes... Another more even balanced match... maybe its because I haven't really played against any top tier Cervy players. I don't see Cervy having much that trumps Talim; but the simple range advantage puts him over the top. A good think to know, as a Talim player, 6K stops GDR dead in its tracks, with counterhit.

Still on the fence with this one as well. For now, it remains as is.

Still: 6-4 Cervantes

4.5 - Raphael... Raph's 44B is enough to stop almost all of Talim's options. The problem is that Raph doesn't have much more than that; but its enough to give him a slight edge.

Raphael's 44B is just like Xianghua's, but fortunately, it doesn't TC very long, so it's a lot easier for Talim to interrupt.
WC works wonders here against Raphael's more linear moves. Raph has decent TCs. Talim's step-33A beats all prep options on block. If she can get by his pokes at range she can apply decent pressure.

I'm gonna say: 5-5 Even

4.5 - Siegfried... Siegfried, like Mitsurugi has an amazing Nitaku game, he also has a moderately paced range game. He can't use his range game the same way as Kilik or Ivy, but its enough to give him an extremely slight advantage.

I'll say: 6-4 Siegfried

4.5 - Yun-seong... Post 1.03, Yun-seong has dropped down from being potentially broke, to just being your average mid-tier character. Without the stuff he had before the big patch, he really doesn't have anything to provide a significant advantage over Talim. The one thing he does have, is an EXCELLENT punish game, and Talim is very punishable. You'll have an easier time with Talim in this matchup, if you throw out all of your high damage setups from the start... they are all punishable... Even her Wind Leap options can be interrupted with a single B.

I'll say: it's an even 5-5 here

5 - Amy... I dont really think Amy has anything on Talim. She's not to fast, although she is very safe; her range is almost as bad as Talim's, so she gets into Talim's optimum range by her own whims.

Still: an even 5-5

5 - Maxi... As you guys already hinted at, Talim has a decent time against Maxi. Its no clear advantage, but its not a clear disadvantage either; unlike her other matchups. Just like Amy, Maxi brings himself into Talim's optimum range in order to attack. Without the ability to play true spacing game, Maxi can't come out on top.

Still: an even 5-5

For others...
vs. Tira:
There just doesn't seem to be anything Tira has that gives her a major advantage over Talim. Yes, Tira out ranges her, (who doesn't?), but her ranged moves aren't terribly overwhelming. GS B+K Counter can be a bit of a nuisance since it parries all mids, including kicks at close range, but since it can't be abused it's not likely to be a game changing move. On the other hand, Talim is quick enough to outpace Tira most of the time and Tira's spacing game isn't all that great in GS. JS has much better spacing tools.

I've only played against one good Tira so I can admit my knowledge of the matchup is limited, but I also play Tira a little myself, so I have a decent idea as to how she works. From what I've seen, I think Talim has the edge in this match, but lack of knowledge makes me wonder...

For now I'll say 6-4 Talim


vs. Seong Mi-Na:
Mina has range on her side, and unlike Kilik, she is most deadly from range. Mina can punish and/or beat out a lot of Talim's transitions with either 6B+K, or 9B+K. She's annoying to get in on as well, but once Talim gets inside the matchup is in her favor. A lot of Mina's moves have slow enough frames for Talim to interrupt even on slight disadvantage. Mina is also very linear so stepping or WCing becomes a lot more useful here. Still, Mina just has very nice tools to create space and maintain it, and her ground game is severely underestimated. While bad, this matchup definitely isn't impossibly hard though.

I'll rate this one as: 6-4 Seong Mi-Na

 

[ZeroEffect317]

So after being practically forced to play online again for any sort of comp. I've been having a lot of issues fighting Astaroths... I've been in a bit of a slump in general but it seems Asta has been the main culprit.

I guess since it is online there's something to be said about that too. Sometimes though he seems even faster than Talim. And it's not just one move specifically. Even Players who aren't really amazing with him managed to find a way to win somehow. It's just annoying that no matter how good you are, Astaroth can still kill you in 4 moves or so.

 

[pineapplejuice]

lol youve probably just lost your mojo, online astys are talim fodder

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Yeah, it could just be an off-week for me. I don't mean lag tactic Astaroths though. They know a little bit of his combos and don't abuse 1[A] stuff. I outplay them the whole match but then one mistake takes half of my life bar.

 

[MasudSabr]

Yeah, Astaroths are hard. That's why I found the other thread with the Asta player asking for help against Talim a tad amusing. Let's say the other player doesn't know how to hit Talim out of her stances or grab at the right time, then all you need to do is make him hold on to G and attack like crazy. A little war cry might help. lol

On a more constructive note, I find the AS variations rather useful against him. Online anyway. Otherwise, keep using knock-down/stun moves followed by mix-ups.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Interestingly enough, I played an Astaroth player a few hours ago that was pretty good. And after a match or two, I had very little trouble when I used Talim. A lot of his moves can be WC BB or WC K'd to his left. I dunno, maybe it was just the style the other guys were using that made it harder for me.

But trying to duck JF throws on reaction online is a lost cause, and breaking them is nearly as tough online. Which is unfortunately the biggest threats up close.

 

[Vegeta]

As for who I struggle with It'd Be cervantes (GOD I hate telespam crap.) I don't know why but I have SOOO much trouble fighting him with Talim. I hate it when I try to jump back and then he teleports and my commands get reversed into her back turned B+K or something. I'd probably have to say Yoshi give me a lotta crap too.

 

[MasudSabr]

Well done Zero for getting the hang of it :D Maybe it was the other guy's play style after all. I would be too scared to WC around Asta though hahaha

I've only encountered one Cerv player who timed his teleports to kill Talim's stances. In my experience though, you can usually attack consistently enough to stop him from teleporting. I guess it boils down to keeping the distance close enough and not giving the other player a break? :S *hasn't played enough good Cervs*

 

[Jaxel]

playing against Khent's Mina... I have to say that Mina has a HUGE advantage over Talim... 7-3 or maybe even worse.

 

[ruinandchaos85]

I dunno about Mina, Jaxel. Guess I have to get out more. I don't have a problem getting in close to most Mina players. The only thing I could see becoming a problem would be her aGI's(for me), which I have never seen used viably. Really, are they useful at all?

Also, Zero as far as Algol goes, bubble spacing kills most chances for Talim to get close. And even if she does, Algol completely out ranges Talim, he can stop her before she gets into range. Without the spacing however, she stands a decent chance, but nothing's stopping the player from using it...

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Sorry, Jaxel... gotta disagree with ya there. You're probably just not used to playing good Minas like his.

She's got spacing and a couple decent punishers, but once you get inside, Talim can interrupt her pretty nicely. iFC3BB is really good against her outside 2K range, and 22K to her right side works wonders. Mina's fastest close range moves (6B+K, 6AK, A+B etc...) will either whiff over her head or not reach Talim from there. Quite a few of Mina's better moves are unsafe enough to get 50+ dmg off of block/whiff punishing.

Talim does not have the edge in this match, but I honestly just cannot see it being worse than 6-4. She's certainly not as hard to fight as say Ivy or Kilik.

And yes, Mina's aGIs can be set up nicely and work rather well.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Well, I'm convinced that Talim has a really tough time against Zasalamel... enough to maybe warrant a 7-3/8-2 matchup ranking. I've been fighting a slew of good Zasalamels (albeit online) and I just can't find an answer to this character. He has good step killers, keeps advantage pressure on you, and he out-ranges Talim by a great deal as well. WL is near useless against him, and although Zas is supposed to be quite linear I just don't see it.

Any comments on this match?

 

[MasudSabr]

Zero, I think you just haven't gotten used to Zas yet. I used to play this Zas player fairly often and I believe Zas only seems to have an advantage.

You're right about WL and WC being rather useless, but he lacks fast moves and good lows. Most of his pulling moves does leave him with an advantage, but when it comes to poking, Talim has the edge (1A+B is your friend!). He tends to keep you at attacking distance too, so there's usually no problem with getting close. Although he makes you block a lot, I've never had one manage to CF me... Duck only when you have to and step as little as possible, and you should be all right.

 

[mikosu]

Zero, I think you just haven't gotten used to Zas yet. I used to play this Zas player fairly often and I believe Zas only seems to have an advantage.

You're right about WL and WC being rather useless, but he lacks fast moves and good lows. Most of his pulling moves does leave him with an advantage, but when it comes to poking, Talim has the edge (1A+B is your friend!). He tends to keep you at attacking distance too, so there's usually no problem with getting close. Although he makes you block a lot, I've never had one manage to CF me... Duck only when you have to and step as little as possible, and you should be all right.

No no no. He lacks good anti-step. Zas becomes easier when you duck his highs in strings, especially the +4 pulls. A lot of his moves are unsafe but if spaced properly can be hard to punish. Get used to punishing his BB if they like using it. His lows aren't great but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be feared. All his stuns but 2 are shakeable. Don't give him adv that's easily avoided.

 

[MasudSabr]

No no no. He lacks good anti-step. Zas becomes easier when you duck his highs in strings, especially the +4 pulls. A lot of his moves are unsafe but if spaced properly can be hard to punish. Get used to punishing his BB if they like using it. His lows aren't great but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be feared. All his stuns but 2 are shakeable. Don't give him adv that's easily avoided.

Oh yeah, you can duck some of his pulls. I agree with all your points, though I don't know about his anti-steps. Maybe I wasn't doing right, but I find his moves track quite well...

 

[ZeroEffect317]

I dunno, I find that whenever I go to step him I eat a 3AB or 66A and then the race to get back on offense begins. If I manage to block both of these then they are punishable. (I'm not sure how much pushback those moves have though, so Talim may be out of range for anything less than 16 frames) It's just after I'm hit, it's a pain to try and shift the momentum back around if the Zasalamel player isn't playing very unsafe.

I know a few things about fighting him, like how ducking the highs and shakeable stuns were mentioned, but a lot of Talim's high damage mixups seem to be hard to land on him even when your on offense. Looking again at his frames MasudSabr is right about him not having a major CF game, though. Maybe I can take that into account.

 

[Krokpot]

Im having some rediculous problems against a patient astaroth. He seems to just sit back and wait, then counter everything I do.. deal out some dmg and back off to long range again. So far I've been working on GI and AS to work my way in.. but its rough going. and I feel when i do get in if i dont kill him all at once then its a lost round.

friends just started keeping me away with S. Mina and astaroth. yuk.. stinks trying to work my way in.