The One True SCV Tier List/Character Discussion Thread

[WhYYZ]

One thing that bothers me is, how much does execution factor in tier lists?

It should be close to none. Some stuff can be up for debate as using Hilde's C2B loop consistanly on every single character in the game is argubly the hardest thing in the game and personally I don't count it in my list but if I did she'd end up top 5. Or punishing a -17 move with iGDR. The reason why punishing is a lot easier in the game than SF is because you can imput the move and as soon as you exit you recovery frames, you character does the move. That's also the reason why some moves are impossible/really hard to JG. Anyway I digress, doing a DJT is something that takes a lot of muscle memory but it can be done. It also depends which character you're fighting against. Phyrra has a bigger chance of escaping if Apat fucks up then Astaroth or Nightmare. But in the end, if Apat doesn't fuck up it shouldn't matter.

And with the just guarding CE, It's usually not needed to JG a CE. Most of them are -20 or worse.

Are we also going to assume that every move that can be blocked on reaction can also be Just Guarded in reaction

Pretty much, Some characters have a really slow BB. Ivy is a good example, you can just guard the second hit on reaction after you blocked the first one. And it's -13 so it can be decently punished. General rule of thumb for me is: If it's i18 or less it's pretty much invisible. i19>i30 it can be blocked but not JG'd if you are not anticipating it.
Anything slower like 22B From hilde or Astaroth can be reacted to and should be just guarded. Of course there are some exceptions to the rule because some moves are masked fairly well making it hard to react too. I have that with Tira's 44Bh GS. That move is REALLY slow but JG'ing it is just awkward.

 

[damn-I-Suck]

Also, after watching a lot of pro raphael players, I couldn't help notice that A+B/A+B A was only used in some ground combos. I like the move for other reasons as well.

For one thing, it takes a slight step backward. Not much, but it's enough that I have actually caused the opponent to whiff and get that juicy 58 damage from it being NCC. If you follow up with the A it's only -12. I have also killed step with it on occasion. @ i18, it's reasonably fast.

I'm guessing there's some reason why this move is bad outside of combo's that I'm not seeing, seeing as how I seem to be the only one who likes that move.

Help me out guys, tell me why this move is bad. What is it I'm missing here?

Also, maybe this raphael discussion should be moved?

 

[Slade]

Also, after watching a lot of pro raphael players, I couldn't help notice that A+B/A+B A was only used in some ground combos. I like the move for other reasons as well.

For one thing, it takes a slight step backward. Not much, but it's enough that I have actually caused the opponent to whiff and get that juicy 58 damage from it being NCC. If you follow up with the A it's only -12. I have also killed step with it on occasion. @ i18, it's reasonably fast.

The last hit can be jumped or JGed pretty easily (although it is hit confirmable). For just raw interrupt power Raph has 6BB and BBB, which are both faster, longer ranged, and safer while still being hit confirmable and giving similar damage. One upside to A+BA is that, as far as I know, Leixia's 9K is the only TJ move fast enough to both punish A+B and jump A+BA. Even Ivy's Jump B is too slow.

The move itself isn't terrible, but I think that most Raph players just prefer to make the opponent whiff and then take free damage instead of trying to interrupt them at every turn (which is where Raph's weakness to step factors in).

 

[Fendante]

Imo Raph is the worst character in this game.

Easy steppable and almost no good anti step moves in general, RO game is a joke, damage overall is weak, speed is mediocre(at least his 2A is very good), throws are OK, punish game is OK, range is very good but his stance transitions are quite easy to interrupt and you don´t have to fear any mid/low or throw/mid mixups.

I agree with some of what you said such as bad RO game and relatively low damage, but if you really study him, you'll realize that he can get great damage from wall combos, 4B, 22B, SE B and 33K$. He's a defensive fencer, a combination of whiff punisher, analyzer, and block punisher who is not meant to inflict massive damage compared to other characters. Step is not his biggest weakness btw, it's TC.

Throws are just OK? Three of them do higher than average damage and both forward ones along with a side one can RO.

Punishment may be weak but he can punish ALMOST ANYTHING at almost any range (something other characters cannot do). The more unsafe a move is, the more damage he gets.

I agree his stance is easy to beat, but a good Raph player will know how to mix up his Prep options and even fake them to make his game-play more effective.

No mixups? 33B, 22B are good mixups. so is 11K with 33K$. After a 2A on hit, Raph gets a free mixup between vampire throw and FC3B.

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

I agree with some of what you said such as bad RO game and relatively low damage, but if you really study him, you'll realize that he can get great damage from wall combos, 4B, 22B, SE B and 33K$. He's a defensive fencer, a combination of whiff punisher, analyzer, and block punisher who is not meant to inflict massive damage compared to other characters. Step is not his biggest weakness btw, it's TC.

His wall combo damage is compared to most of the cast pretty mediocre. Maxi, Asta, Nighty, Mitsu, Natsu and many other chars do more damage. And you really think his biggest weakness is lack of TC´s? I mean, yeah he doesn´t excel at that either but his main problem is still lack of good and reliable anti step moves.

Throws are just OK? Three of them do higher than average damage and both forward ones along with a side one can RO.

But the damage of his front throws is not even average(45/50). But his b throw can be deadly against the wall... I give you that. Throws are rather good.

Punishment may be weak but he can punish ALMOST ANYTHING at almost any range (something other characters cannot do). The more unsafe a move is, the more damage he gets.

He can punish a lot yes, but the damage is low most of the time... Still think it´s "OK".

No mixups? 33B, 22B are good mixups. so is 11K with 33K$. After a 2A on hit, Raph gets a free mixup between vampire throw and FC3B.

Never faced or saw someone using 33B/22B mix ups. 11K and 33KB BE yes, bot only from wake up imo, so...
Vampire throw and FC3B mix ups after 2A on hit sounds interesting though.

 

[Jimbonator]

I'm pretty sure he meant that tech crouches were Raphael's weakness in terms of his opponent, given that a large portion of his moveset are high attacks. 4B, 1K, and 66B are all excellent tech crouches. 33KB and throw is also a great mix up from movement.

 

[Party Wolf]

But the damage of his front throws is not even average(45/50). But his b throw can be deadly against the wall... I give you that. Throws are rather good

66A+G is really good. It gives him an untechable knockdown that gives him 60 damage and health. I think it is also good to note that he has a side throw that resets zoning (I think it is the 60 damage throw)

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

I'm pretty sure he meant that tech crouches were Raphael's weakness in terms of his opponent, given that a large portion of his moveset are high attacks. 4B, 1K, and 66B are all excellent tech crouches. 33KB and throw is also a great mix up from movement.

Yeah, maybe he was talking about that. Mea culpa. And 66B has TC frames? I mean, the animation looks like it has TC frames but i never saw Raph go under something with that. Must be because it is used from far range as a whiff punishment tool most of the time.

66A+G is really good. It gives him an untechable knockdown that gives him 60 damage and health. I think it is also good to note that he has a side throw that resets zoning (I think it is the 60 damage throw)

I was especially talking about A+G and B+G because both can RO. Forgot about 66A+G. Really good throw indeed.

 

[TheMikenyan]

And 66B has TC frames? I mean, the animation looks like it has TC frames but i never saw Raph go under something with that. Must be because it is used from far range as a whiff punishment tool most of the time.

Sure does. Notably, I've used it to slip under Algol's bubbles, Ezio's crossbow, and Cervantes' 6B+K, and even his CE by chance. Timing is tricky, but it can punish a lot of highs.

 

[IAdoreBunnies]

IMO, ZWEI IS BEST PLAYED AS A TURTLE. HIS STRENGTH IS BACKSTEP AND B + K SPAM. IF THE OPPONENT GETS TO HAPPY, THEY EAT ABOUT 70 DAMAGE FROM THIS SETUP. EIN SPACING GAME IS OP. HE ALSO HAS VIABLE STEP CATCHERS LIKE 66B AND 6A. HE'S GOT EIN MIXUPS AND EXCELLENT GRAB DAMAGE. IMO, IN THE HANDS OF SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HOW ZWEI SHOULD BE PLAYED, HE COULD BE JUST AS GOOD AS OTHER CHARACTERS.

 

[Frayhua]

IMO, ZWEI IS BEST PLAYED AS A TURTLE. HIS STRENGTH IS BACKSTEP AND B + K SPAM. IF THE OPPONENT GETS TO HAPPY, THEY EAT ABOUT 70 DAMAGE FROM THIS SETUP. EIN SPACING GAME IS OP. HE ALSO HAS VIABLE STEP CATCHERS LIKE 66B AND 6A. HE'S GOT EIN MIXUPS AND EXCELLENT GRAB DAMAGE. IMO, IN THE HANDS OF SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HOW ZWEI SHOULD BE PLAYED, HE COULD BE JUST AS GOOD AS OTHER CHARACTERS.

I agree on your opinion on Z.W.E.I. because he hasn't been fully explored like Viola. As the the balance of SCV, I think the the game is pretty well balanced. It's balanced because great players can show people the power of their characters gives SCV it's balance. On Viola, she's not broken, but she's got janky stuff, Everyone has some BS, but calling for bans is a sign as us being victims and not enjoying the game.

 

[Jimbonator]

ZWEI has some nice jank but like I previously said a few pages ago, all his set ups are countered by actions anyone in the cast can easily do. Duck here, step here, probably GI here, and punish here.

 

[Paragon049]

I agree on your opinion on Z.W.E.I. because he hasn't been fully explored like Viola.

No character in the game has been as fully explored as Zwei. Since the game came out, there has been an extremely dedicated community working together and going over the character with a microscope to try and find new tech and setups. Thousands upon thousands of cumulative hours have been spent on this character. There is nothing left to find. The reason no one's made any sort of impact with Zwei, and never will, is because the character is god awful plain and simple. People found gamebreaking stuff with Viola within a few months of the first patch coming out, yet no one has found anything truly good with Zwei besides a few gimmicky setups in the year and a half this game has been out. If Zwei had anything really good, people would have found it a long time ago.

 

[ZOo00OOm]

Aren't people still exploring Seigfried and Algol? I thought those were the top two still being explored.

 

[taffertier]

ZWEI has some nice jank but like I previously said a few pages ago, all his set ups are countered by actions anyone in the cast can easily do. Duck here, step here, probably GI here, and punish here.

The thing about ZWEI's set ups are that some are avoidable, but in some cases they are still guesses. Things like blocking the first hit of 66A+B and deciding on what to do on the follow up. You can only step or hit him out of it if it's delayed, and if it's not than you just have to take the block, stepping or attacking will get you launched. Once the opponent is conditioned into thinking you arent going to delay the attack, that's when you start doing it and that's where you get the leeway to go into other things like guard pressure or set ups. A slight delay will also mess up the opponents JG timing if they're trying to JG the second hit.

This also applies to some moves on hit, like 4[A], which is a pretty good tech crouch move of his. If you get hit by the initial hit, you cant side step or try to interrupt him or you'll get hit by EIN and take whatever follow up combo they have. Now you could just block, and that'd be fine since the EIN portion isnt a natural combo. But then you once again give ZWEI the ability to do unblockable set ups, guard pressure, or even just use a slight delay to bait a counter attack or JG.

I dont know how ZWEI fairs on par with the rest of the roster, but it's difficult to say where he fits in because so much of his strength relies on the opponent making mistakes and you making the best of non-guaranteed damage set ups.

 

[FenrisZero]

LOL I'M DEFENDING ZWEI!

Every time you pull out Ein you're putting yourself in a mixup, not your opponent. Only time Zwei wins is MU Ignorance.

 

[ZeroBeat]

Every time you pull out Ein you're putting yourself in a mixup, not your opponent. Only time Zwei wins is MU Ignorance.

We've fought before fenris on ps3 and you beat me while I was using Zwei pretty badly, but I think ive gotten better since then and Id like to have another chance at you.

 

[taffertier]

Aside from the total lack of substance, that was some spot on refutation.

 

[Signia]

I don't know what people are talking about when they say ZWEI's just gimmicks. Granted, 1(B) is punishable by fast TCs, but it seems like he can put you in legitimate mixups. 66A+B can beJG'd or GI'd on reaction to EIN movement regardless of charge, but ZWEI can JG the GI and JGing EIN offers no reward, not even +frames iirc. 66A+B can start gimmicky mixups but it's still good even if there is no real mixup; it's a safe, damaging launcher that catches rolls and has odd tracking with the EIN attack.

How does one deal with the three-way mixup of 4(A) blocked? It requires a very fast step-attack to punish both 4(A) (fastest release) and 4(A)G, but a delayed release will hit step attacks. EIN must be stepped after A is released.

So, the options seem to be:

attack right away: loses to fast release, beats delayed release and full charge

step-attack: beats fast release, loses to delayed release, and beats full charge

step, sidewalk, attack: steps both fast-release and delayed release. Won't hit 4(A)G and EIN will probably punish the attack on block.

step, sidewalk, G: Probably punish fast-release on reaction, ZWEI at disadvantage but probably not punishable if delayed release is stepped, guards fully charged into advantage. Idk whether 4(A) 22K will beat a step targeted to beat delayed release, or if you can stop stepping and guard it on reaction. Not sure whether it steps the unblockable setup.

step-G: beats fast release, guard damage and advantage to ZWEI for delayed release and full charge

GI: beats only one of the three options depending on timing

JGG: avoids guard damage on one of the three options

G: guard damage and varying amount of advantage to ZWEI depending on charge length. A guard break setup can hurt you for guarding, but that requires a hard read that is beaten by most other options.

backstep: beaten by fast release, avoids guard damage but probably not even at advantage for dodging the other two options.


Since no single option seems to beat everything, which option set is best for beating 4(A)? What then is ZWEI's best course of action? Roughly what are the Nash equilibriums for both players? Whose favor is the mixup in? Keep in mind ZWEI gets A+B tacked on at the very least if EIN hits.

 

[Party Wolf]

sidestep to the left > AA punishes every option from 4(A)