The One True SCV Tier List/Character Discussion Thread

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Sometimes I think people find ways to convince themselves that it's more balanced than it is because they enjoy playing it and must face some cognitive dissonance if they came to the realization that it's quite lopsided.

I call it 'the Soul Calibur religion'.

I don't see this being the case when we have years of tournament data and a general consensus of what the tiers are from the people who actually compete in this game.

Plus I see can see for myself after competing in SC4 for 4 years and SCV for 2 years. I enjoyed playing SC4 more than SCV, but the balance in SC4 was terrible. In SCV, the only unviable character is ZWEI. Compare this to SC4 where a good portion of the roster had no chance at seriously competing and a much larger disparity in tiers.

Even so, we've still had players who put in work with a character who's crap on paper because tier lists only tell part of the story. There's still individual matchups between characters and the players themselves to consider, especially if one of the players doesn't do their homework.

I think people that lose a lot probably tend to think the game is more unbalanced because that's the easiest way to look at it.

Though of course it has its best and worst character, SCV is a very balanced game. P-E-R-I-O-D.

It's easier for a player to blame the game and call it unbalanced instead of themselves as to why they suck.

Yeah, people who understand how to play the game competitively know that it is balanced. You could use the Soulcalibur religion excuse, but then you would have to explain why Soulcalibur players think SCIV is unbalanced.

People want to say bs instead of looking at the facts, or look at one character to judge the balance of the entire roster by which is silly. Plus we just had someone win a big tournament using Leixia who alot of people wrote off after she could no longer do double CE. I don't know what else do they need to see.

I know people don't like SCV for various reasons, but balance is not an issue in this game.
 
The only problem I have is that some characters like Algol can dump meter for a high damaging combo, while others can't.
 
II enjoyed playing SC4 more than SCV, but the balance in SC4 was terrible. In SCV, the only unviable character is ZWEI.
Was this improved balance due to having a ex-competitive player in the role of director with final veto or more likely due to the flexibility of the new game mechanics (chiefly being edge meter and jG)?
 
I still remember the days before constant internet connections, when the way a character was was the the way they stayed until the next update. Thanks to advances in the way data is delivered, now it's possible to help make the game more balanced. Even when that means making the some of the least equipped characters even HARDER to work with(E.G. Post patch Tira and ZWEI's 66A+B getting increased recovery time and reduced block stun)
 
Was this improved balance due to having a ex-competitive player in the role of director with final veto or more likely due to the flexibility of the new game mechanics (chiefly being edge meter and jG)?

I think it has more to do with the overall design focus of SCV in making a game that’s easier for new players to get into and more appealing for today’s fighting game players to try out, along with the emphasis that was placed on fixing the balance and other core gameplay problems from SC4 to make it a more respected game due to the feedback from players.

I don’t think it has to do with the director being a competitive player since there are other people who’ve been working on Soulcalibur for years that started out playing competitively, but a lot of attention was put into the competitive side with this game which we may not ever see again.

I still remember the days before constant internet connections, when the way a character was was the the way they stayed until the next update. Thanks to advances in the way data is delivered, now it's possible to help make the game more balanced. Even when that means making the some of the least equipped characters even HARDER to work with(E.G. Post patch Tira and ZWEI's 66A+B getting increased recovery time and reduced block stun)

That's not true because fighting games in the arcades would receive several updates before landing to console to address balance. You can also see the differences with the versions of SC2 for NTSC and PAL regions. And if Tira was so hard to work with, then Decopon wouldn't have won EVO or WGC using her.
 
If I remember correctly I believe the changes made to Tira were because she got guaranteed mood swings of her BE's which made it possible to keep her in GS for basically the entire match.
 
If I remember correctly I believe the changes made to Tira were because she got guaranteed mood swings of her BE's which made it possible to keep her in GS for basically the entire match.
Interesting. What tools does she still have to make her as dangerous as Decopon made her to be?
 
There's no comparison to sc4. That game was a trainwreck :) But simply comparing SCV to SC4 isn't saying much because it's still pretty lopsided. Zwei isn't the only shitty character, and Viola isn't the only OP one either.

I never said I don't like SCV, for the record. I simply said that it isn't balanced. It's still fun to me so at the end of the day I don't care THAT much about balance. If I did, why would I use Raphael as a main? I play him because he's fun to use. I don't make excuses for losing, and if I cared about winning as bad as a tournament player I would switch to someone else.

There's no such thing as a balanced fighting game, period. I wish people would stop deluding themselves just because they like the game and feel the need to justify their reason for playing it by calling it balanced.

And yes, in the beginning years, SC4 was called 'fairly balanced' by many, because it was the newest game at the time. People need to believe that the game they play is superior somehow. As soon as SCV was announced, the game got bashed for balanced into kingdom come.

Mark my words, once we get SC6, people will say the same shit about SCV like for example 'viola broke the game' or what ever. What we really need is a long fucking development time for SC6, and I don't think anyone can disagree with me on that one. This is the last post I will make on the subject.
 
You can't really say there is no such thing as a balanced fighting game when games like Virtua Fighter exist. Besides that, the whole SCV getting bashed for balanced thing was mostly casuals and scrubs bitching about things they know jack shit about because Namco left out their favorite waifu. So a lot them went on long winded rants about why its a terrible game citing balance as a key reason. How many good players have you seen actually say this? Also, I'm pretty sure that Algol was basically insta-banned in SC4 because of shit like his dumb ass half screen BB.
As for Tira, her tools are pretty much the same except without the guaranteed transitions.
 
I simply said that it isn't balanced.

Based on what?

It's still fun to me so at the end of the day I don't care THAT much about balance.

Then why are you posting in a thread about balance and tier lists?

There's no such thing as a balanced fighting game, period. I wish people would stop deluding themselves just because they like the game and feel the need to justify their reason for playing it by calling it balanced.

What's wrong if someone does like this game for its balance? You can have various reasons for playing a particular fighting game. There's nothing wrong with balance being one of those reasons or not. Look at the people who loved playing MVC2 or 3rd Strike for 10+ years.

And yes, in the beginning years, SC4 was called 'fairly balanced' by many

People say stupid things when they're drunk or posting online.
 
Based on what?

His point is that any game with any characters that aren't on the same tier is unbalanced. Technically he's right, but is it a point worth making? Especially after he said that this isn't important to him, or important at all?

Conceding that a game will never be 100 percent balanced, SCV is pretty damn close. One character that is shit and one to three (I'm being very generous) characters that are extremely powerful is really... really damn good for a game that has been patched once.

Also, ZWEI can still win in a lot of situations and he's obviously the worst character in SCV. How many bottom-tier characters can say that in other fighters?
 
His point is that any game with any characters that aren't on the same tier is unbalanced. Technically he's right, but is it a point worth making? Especially after he said that this isn't important to him, or important at all?

If you want to be technical about it, sure. You also wouldn't have much of a fighting game either. Might as well play Pong.

Conceding that a game will never be 100 percent balanced, SCV is pretty damn close. One character that is shit and one to three (I'm being very generous) characters that are extremely powerful is really... really damn good for a game that has been patched once.

I don't know what others consider balance in a fighting game to be which is why I asked for his basis, but to me it's basically been the majority of the cast being able to compete at a high level, not having large disparities between tiers or characters that completely dominate the field or to the point where you done goofed for not picking them (see 3S Chun, MVC2 Sentinel, etc).

The point Mr. Hook is trying to make is that he feels that players are somehow tricking themselves into believing the game is more balanced than it is because they enjoy playing it, but we have tournament results and a consensus among those who compete on what the tiers are to show that it is.

What I don't get is why people feel the need to rain on those who do enjoy the game. There's other games to play if you don't enjoy this one. But if this were truly a religion, then we'd be making claims based on no data or results.

Also, ZWEI can still win in a lot of situations and he's obviously the worst character in SCV. How many bottom-tier characters can say that in other fighters?

This is why tiers don't tell the full story, only part of it. There's still matchups between the characters and players themselves to consider as well.
 
I said I wasn't gonna say anymore, but I can't resist.

When I play the game (fairly competently I might add) and I see vast differences in win percentages when I use certain characters over others, I can't, and will not call it balanced. It doesn't seem to matter which character im up against all that much, it just matters who I play. Just because someone won with Leixia doesn't mean she isn't trash, it just means that the victor is that much better of a player.

Let me give you an example. I don't even main NM, or play him all that much, yet despite the fact that I hardly use him, my win percentage is significantly higher. And using him I never feel like it takes all that much effort to win VS my main, Raphael.

Yes, there are always character specialists and loyalists who show us what the true potential it, like Shining Decapon with Tira. Keep in mind though that he won early in the game's lifespan before people really knew how to fight her. Since that time, I have yet to see anyone win any major with Tira, Raphael, Zwei, Dampierre, or even fucking Hilde even though she's really not that bad at all.

Point being, even so called "slight differences in tiers" make a huge difference if you are even remotely skilled at the game. Even before I knew the frames and whatnot, it was pretty blatantly obvious who the best characters were. As time goes on, you will see a smaller and smaller group of 'viable' characters in the tournament scene much in the same say that just about every fighter ends up being like. Give it time, it will happen.
 
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