Yoshimitsu Matchup Discussion

Pocky-Yoshi said:
Hmmm. All I got was 6K 3K, 3B after blocking it. Or just simply duck it with FC3k or 214A . I haven't fought many great Natsu's on Live so I can't form the best opinion. But usually, it all boils down to the 50-50. Either low or that low high cancel.

So even if I get hit out of 9K or so, I'm not gonna be discouraged from not using them. Unless us Yoshis have a sliver of health, a little i8 is not bad. It doesn't knockdown and it's probably our only best case scenario, however interrupting with 3K should be just fine. For both.
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Gotta remember that if they go 4A+B6, PO K will TJ over FC 3K and 214A. PO A will hit before 9K (I have a habit on 9K-ing by instinct after blocking a bomb and more often than not it doesn't work out in my favor), and 6K whiffs if they delay/PO A+B/B+K. It is theoretically a somewhat 50:50, but IMO Natsu has better options off 4A+B6 on block than Yoshi. Plus you need to RCC a 3K, which I can't do instinctively. This coming from someone who uses both chars.

Personally, I just block and when they start getting adventurous and trying PO B, I try to guess and 9K beforehand. Or iMCF.
 
So far the natsu's I face online they keep doing PO K, B, and hover whenever I block 4A+B6. So....I'll continue to keep sidestepping it like always until they mix it up :D
 
Oboro said:
But you block low so by the time you RCC 3K and 3B can't punish plus 6K whiffs. I will still opt for FLEA K as my go to choice if I react in time because you're risker the unlikely event of taking the A cancel for an 85 damage combo. Which should at least discourage them.
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Very true. Sorry for thine errors. Most times though, I'd panic and use 2B, 2A, and 3K if I don't wanna block low. Again, I haven't fought many Great Natsus on X-box live to even have a good judgement =/. So I only gambled with 9K and the three pokes I mentioned to interrupt.

Anyways, for the 4A+B low, you can 9G over the bomb at point blank range to get behind Natsu.
 
She just seems to spam pokes and summon the ball over and over and I frozen just out of reach of any of most better pressure tools. She's like Soulcalibur's V13.
 
In my experience with Viola this is a rather lame suggestion but 4A+K (drunken stance) is still an auto GI and one of the more common IFP moves, also if you can push foward enough, you can iMCF as an all-purpose out. Aside from that I say just try to force whiffs by side-step and poke with AA; in otherwords turtle.
 
Oboro said:
She just seems to spam pokes and summon the ball over and over and I frozen just out of reach of any of most better pressure tools. She's like Soulcalibur's V13.
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Most of her lame ball shit can be ducked universally until you see a mid (which are pretty obvious). Punish after blocking correctly. Half the battle is knowing which of her attacks leave her punishable.
 
Pocky-Yoshi said:
Anyways, for the 4A+B low, you can 9G over the bomb at point blank range to get behind Natsu.
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Post-patch, G8/G9 seem to come out slower than 9[A,B,K]. If you find yourself getting hit by stuff you used to jump previously..... you might want to switch to 9K.
 
Supa said:
Post-patch, G8/G9 seem to come out slower than 9[A,B,K]. If you find yourself getting hit by stuff you used to jump previously..... you might want to switch to 9K.
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Thanks for the help, but I already knew about 9K TJ and stuffing bombs since Takis. But, I was referring to 9Ging like right in front of her bombs hence the point blank range. Anyways, is 8_9G i20 or so?
 
I'm not sure we're on the same topic here.

After the latest patch, it seems like you definitely empty jump slower (G7/8/9) and it is generally less responsive. 7/8/9A/B/K seems to be the same speed and a bit more responsive than G7/8/9. I used to jump Pie/Poe's 8B+K quake, Nightmare's quake, Natsu's bomb, etc with G8 but now it seems.... not as responsive....

I think it has something to do with patching out the option select. I'm not sure what the frames would be and I'm not sure how 8_9G would have an impact frame.... ? Nor do I follow what this has to do with a character not in SCV?
 
Supa said:
I'm not sure we're on the same topic here.

After the latest patch, it seems like you definitely empty jump slower (G7/8/9) and it is generally less responsive. 7/8/9A/B/K seems to be the same speed and a bit more responsive than G7/8/9. I used to jump Pie/Poe's 8B+K quake, Nightmare's quake, Natsu's bomb, etc with G8 but now it seems.... not as responsive....

I think it has something to do with patching out the option select. I'm not sure what the frames would be and I'm not sure how 8_9G would have an impact frame.... ? Nor do I follow what this has to do with a character not in SCV?
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But all I'm just asking is a plain jane 8_9G i20 or so? I don't care about this patch or the fact you can jump over stuff better than I. That's nice and all, but I'm a scrub who just wants to know is 8_9G the same as 8_9K or slower? If it's slower, unsafe with a good explanation etc, then I'll rest my case and thank you. But if it isn't, I'm gonna experiment with it more for when I see it presented.

However, you didn't tell me how many frames or so. So I don't want to sound rude, but how can I trust you if you don't know how to shut me up with a good logic with a cherry on top? It just sounds like a smart talk with no substance. I mean, do you even research and look at the wiki and hit the lab when you're not sure of something?
 
Here's good logic in a spoiler:

Pocky-Yoshi said:
But all I'm just asking is a plain jane 8_9G i20 or so?
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How does an empty jump have an IMPACT frame?

After the patch that removed the OS G888888 problem, it appears you jump slower. Good logic: OS G8888 allowed you to jump on the impact frame of a low (or stand guard if it wasn't a low). G8 doesn't operate like that anymore post patch. I believe that G8 is slower than 9K post-patch. If you find yourself getting hit with stuff you jumped over before, then try 9K (or any combination of 789 and ABK depending on character). If you jump over stuff for days with superior grace - ignore it.

Either take the suggestion or don't. Experiment with it or don't. Troll elsewhere, guy.
 
Supa said:
Here's good logic in a spoiler:

How does an empty jump have an IMPACT frame?

After the patch that removed the OS G888888 problem, it appears you jump slower. Good logic: OS G8888 allowed you to jump on the impact frame of a low (or stand guard if it wasn't a low). G8 doesn't operate like that anymore post patch. I believe that G8 is slower than 9K post-patch. If you find yourself getting hit with stuff you jumped over before, then try 9K (or any combination of 789 and ABK depending on character). If you jump over stuff for days with superior grace - ignore it.

Either take the suggestion or don't. Experiment with it or don't. Troll elsewhere, guy.
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Why do you think I'm trolling? I'm just asking a question and would like clarification since you felt like chiming in(which I'm fine with).

I guess the way I word things throw you off a bit. My apologies. What I mean by this 9K to 9G comparison is how many frames does it take for each? I already looked up 7_8_9K is i20. But I'm lost on the 9G.

Kinda like how many frames does it take it for Yoshi gets into Flea stance for instance. That's what I'm talking about.

But since this isn't going well, I guess I'll ask someone else. Thanks for the help. =/
 
Pocky-Yoshi said:
However, you didn't tell me how many frames or so. So I don't want to sound rude, but how can I trust you if you don't know how to shut me up with a good logic with a cherry on top? It just sounds like a smart talk with no substance. I mean, do you even research and look at the wiki and hit the lab when you're not sure of something?
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Pocky-Yoshi said:
Why do you think I'm trolling?
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.... seriously? :\
There are so many ways this could have gone including a stupid argument about you questioning whether or not I "even look at the wiki" when you clearly don't even understand what the notation you're using means. No offensive there, clear fact. :\

Anyway, to sort of answer your question: it doesn't make sense to say a non-impacting move is in i20. FLE, MED, NSS, etc are usually just indicated with a frame count (ie 20F) or usually in the case of special stances you'll see a "TJ 15F", etc. iX designates the point of impact for an offensive move. Jumping is not offensive and neither are the stances I mentioned.

We would have to have someone that can capture with input (ie frame data) to give us an answer. Like I said, if you're not having a problem getting hit by those lows after the patch then continue doing what works for you. If you do start having a problem using G8 to jump something you clearly think you should be able to - try using a jumping attack. Especially online.
 
Supa said:
.... seriously? :\
There are so many ways this could have gone including a stupid argument about you questioning whether or not I "even look at the wiki" when you clearly don't even understand what the notation you're using means. No offensive there, clear fact. :\

Anyway, to sort of answer your question: it doesn't make sense to say a non-impacting move is in i20. FLE, MED, NSS, etc are usually just indicated with a frame count (ie 20F) or usually in the case of special stances you'll see a "TJ 15F", etc. iX designates the point of impact for an offensive move. Jumping is not offensive and neither are the stances I mentioned.

We would have to have someone that can capture with input (ie frame data) to give us an answer. Like I said, if you're not having a problem getting hit by those lows after the patch then continue doing what works for you. If you do start having a problem using G8 to jump something you clearly think you should be able to - try using a jumping attack. Especially online.
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This is a much better response. If you said this at first, I wouldn't feel as puzzled and wondered of your knowledge. But then again, that's online for you when the words you want to say but can't put them together. Guess I'll work on that. Apologies on rude stuff.
 
Man, Nightmare lockdown is cruel...any slight mistake, and it's stun, launch, lightning, then I'm on wakeup. If my wake-up is to his starting his one BE (I think the 2B+K BE, but not sure), I have to duck in time just to put myself in a slightly less bad situation (no free hits, just disadvantage forcing me to block an already guard-meter-depleting character).

Any tips on getting around NM's wall of offense? I've tried all the usual tactics, but his sidestep-killing moves are just so devastating and so fast, and he's rarely in range for an iMCF, much less A+K (although timing an A+K on his slow-startup horizontals does help to give me some IFP moves, if I can get the timing right). Even 6B doesn't seem very effective, since I'm usually several frames behind from blocking the last assault. []
 
The only thing that gives Nightmare a real advantage now is 66B. The rest of his moves are pretty punishable, but you often have to be quick since Yoshimitsu isn't the fastest and doesn't have the best reach anymore. Like you mentioned in the other thread..... if only we had Kamikaze. Or being able to option to teleport behind the opponent. :\

Nightmare is also a PITA because DNK breaks on him. :\

Like you mentioned, I also try to use A+K against Nightmare a lot. Many of his moves will push him forward right into range after a successful block or mid string. NSS pursuits can usually easily be interrupted with 6B/A+K to put him on close-range defense. The push from Nightmare seems a lot less of a problem than infamous Poe push, so that's a little easier, but he can recover that room with backstep pretty easily. To get him to whiff you can space with the Yoshishuffle (bGbGbG) safely. Remember to try to step away from his sword hand, but beware those agA's.
 
Oh, those agAs....>_< I will have nightmares about them (hah, see what I did there) for years to come...

And the nigh-unseeable stomp...so irritating (though not so much so as Pomega's). Fortunately he can't punish quicker than 14 frames, and that not with a really damaging move, but it's possible to play him not using anything that I can readily react and sword sweep, other than his punches (and even then). []
 
Getting on top of him is really key. Against an aggressive NM that really shouldn't be too hard. It's the NMs with good spacing that are tough I find. There's ways to cut all of his stance options and punish them as long as you can be in range. 2A is a good starting point if you aren't sure of more damaging options.
 
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