i don't lack imagination the move is just bad...i've came up with combo's that, compared to combo's listed in the strategy book, do just as much or more damage AND take less meter. i just have a different playstyle than other Zwei's. I'm conservative, i don't like risking wasting meter. I do all my BE's in combo's, including 4B BE even though it's hit-confirmable.
Z.W.E.I. Patch/Wishlist
- Thread starter dittO
- Start date
Goofy
[10] Knight
Zwei balancing discussions are so amusing. You've got the decent/high-level players that know his frames/gimmicks and then you've got the scrubs=legitimate competition, "Lul yew gaiz muzt sook cus I win wid Zweye awl dai!" crowd. Too funny to get annoyed :')
Dustinsworth
[09] Warrior
Definitely messed up. I referred to Zwei as a wolf. I meant Ein.
FaustReet
[08] Mercenary
Did you take a look at other characters changes? Now you can punish Pyhrra's AS-B with 4b BE O.O! I mean, making other characters moveset less safe on block it's pretty good for zwei, as his punished lacked a punch before.
babalook
[10] Knight
problem with this is 66A+B can be avoided on oki if your oppoent knows how to roll it and the 1B) setups can be avoided by many characters. I wish they would have made this kind of stuff more solid in the patch at least.
DrDogg
[09] Warrior
So, it's pretty clear we're not going to see more changes until SC6 (unless there's another patch... which is unlikely.) But I was talking to a friend and I'd like to hear some opinions on a buff for ZWEI.
We were discussing what would happen is Ein never canceled. As in, even if ZWEI is hit, Ein still attacks.
Obviously, this would make ZWEI much better, but the debate was to whether or not this one change would make ZWEI broken. I go back and forth on it, because it would make him VERY difficult to fight against, but in most instances if ZWEI was hit, he wouldn't be able to combo after Ein connected, so it almost balances out.
Thoughts?
We were discussing what would happen is Ein never canceled. As in, even if ZWEI is hit, Ein still attacks.
Obviously, this would make ZWEI much better, but the debate was to whether or not this one change would make ZWEI broken. I go back and forth on it, because it would make him VERY difficult to fight against, but in most instances if ZWEI was hit, he wouldn't be able to combo after Ein connected, so it almost balances out.
Thoughts?
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
After 66BA and 66B , A+B will hit backtech
After 4B at close and mid range , 3AA works (3A* for ~90 dmg) at far range 66B works
Uber1337
[10] Knight
Those 66BA tech traps seem pretty solid, but the 3AA tech trap after 4B seems really inconsistent. Some characters you have to be completely in their face for it to land, some it won't land on at all.
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
I think 66B works against back ukemi for all chars.
babalook
[10] Knight
idk it would mean your opponent would have to punish your ein summons with something that knocks down or gives lots of advantage and they would still have to take dmg for punishing you. This would also make B+K BE like a temporary armor up and because ein doesn't cancel if you were to grab and they broke the grab they would still get hit and if they duck and punished your grab they would still get hit so good player would try to run away and because movement is so unsafe in this game running away would most likely not be in there favor. It's a complicated topic but i think it would change the whole basis of his game and most likely make him top/broken tier. I'd prefer if they just removed ein cooldown/sickness it would open up tons of possibilities and overall help his pressure game.
lmayfield
[08] Mercenary
The purpose of this thread is to take all of what the community believes is flawed with Z.W.E.I and submit their input in one location. Clearly these complains have been made over the vast amount of Zwei threads, which would make it very difficult for anyone to find. If we follow the following requirements, this should provide anyone of interest an easy glimpse of what is requested. (We know that a second patch is unlikely. But in just case, this is here)
It is asked that each submission contain all (not some) of the following:
- What is wrong with Z.W.E.I? (the more specifics/details the better. Try not to be vague)
- How I would fix it? (This is subjective, which gives us a chance to discuss it)
- Why would this particular fix "not" break him, but restore balance? (This could be key to getting them to listen)
It is asked that each submission contain all (not some) of the following:
- What is wrong with Z.W.E.I? (the more specifics/details the better. Try not to be vague)
- How I would fix it? (This is subjective, which gives us a chance to discuss it)
- Why would this particular fix "not" break him, but restore balance? (This could be key to getting them to listen)
Gokudo
[08] Mercenary
from the obvious to the subjective ones :
-Reduce the pushback of Ein on block, i want to be able to use the frame advantage from my attack.
-66K = Change the move or change the properties to be useful
-3K = Change it to be a reliable fast anti step move. low risk low reward , just to stop people to run around you with 8wayrun TC moves. 3A can't really deal with fastest moves.
-44K = something needs to be done
- 1B] : Ein hit should be mid. 1B can already be dodge ( step ) .
- A+B :i don't understand why A+B is that punishable. Can be stepped both sides, it's not that fast and it doesn't lead to heavy combo. -16 shouldnt be the deal.
-4 [A+B] : it should be Guard break and give advantage on block.
- 6 B+K : it should be mid/mid
- WR K should stun on counter
- WR A should gives more advantage on hit.
- Jump K should be Mid ......
- 66A : High risk ( bad range, bad start up, high ) to get a kD. the reward doesn't match the risk.
Change it as you want, but it's not a good move.
- 22A : meh
- 11A : god damn it, it's so slow, can be punished on block and have so much damage reduction cause of the stun
- 44B : it's too fast change it for i82 ...
- 66B+K : increase the blockstun so it will still be easy to punish hard on whiff but it will be kinder on block.
- 33B and 33B be : ha ha ha :)
- 3A Be : it should not be punishable on block.
- sKF A : should be faster and safer, dudes, it's a high O_o
- sKF : Give us a kick move in this stance, i just want to be able to do mind game.
-Reduce the pushback of Ein on block, i want to be able to use the frame advantage from my attack.
-66K = Change the move or change the properties to be useful
-3K = Change it to be a reliable fast anti step move. low risk low reward , just to stop people to run around you with 8wayrun TC moves. 3A can't really deal with fastest moves.
-44K = something needs to be done
- 1B] : Ein hit should be mid. 1B can already be dodge ( step ) .
- A+B :i don't understand why A+B is that punishable. Can be stepped both sides, it's not that fast and it doesn't lead to heavy combo. -16 shouldnt be the deal.
-4 [A+B] : it should be Guard break and give advantage on block.
- 6 B+K : it should be mid/mid
- WR K should stun on counter
- WR A should gives more advantage on hit.
- Jump K should be Mid ......
- 66A : High risk ( bad range, bad start up, high ) to get a kD. the reward doesn't match the risk.
Change it as you want, but it's not a good move.
- 22A : meh
- 11A : god damn it, it's so slow, can be punished on block and have so much damage reduction cause of the stun
- 44B : it's too fast change it for i82 ...
- 66B+K : increase the blockstun so it will still be easy to punish hard on whiff but it will be kinder on block.
- 33B and 33B be : ha ha ha :)
- 3A Be : it should not be punishable on block.
- sKF A : should be faster and safer, dudes, it's a high O_o
- sKF : Give us a kick move in this stance, i just want to be able to do mind game.
Dustinsworth
[09] Warrior
I've been playing with Zwei the entire weekend and I've noticed a few things.
- 4A held can allow for 214B, which is awesome if you land it.
- I used to 1B held followed into 1A. I've found 44A is a better mixup.
- The guy has a lot of stun moves, but I'm struggling with punishing. 4B, 6B, 88BB, etc.
- 6B+K is pretty useful. Followed up with 44A, or 66BA, or a throw.
- 6K and 9K are fun little mixers. 6K launches people for ringouts. 9K has that did-he-really-just-do-that feel. I find that 3AA, 3AA BE, 6K gets the curses flowing.
ka_kui
[10] Knight
are you trolling????
this is already known from the zwei players, you only have to read the other posts from zwei section man ¬¬
Serge2HOT4U
[09] Warrior
ok guys, im not sure i this is a patch thing or not, a new thing or not, because today is the first shot i had at post patch ZWEI.
please delete or move this if needed, im kinda drunk posting this
B+G throw has delayable EIN properties.
So B+G does damage, but [B+G] --> EIN will hit way later amd damage is not guaranteed. Mixups or another throw look possible. if this is old - my bad
please delete or move this if needed, im kinda drunk posting this
B+G throw has delayable EIN properties.
So B+G does damage, but [B+G] --> EIN will hit way later amd damage is not guaranteed. Mixups or another throw look possible. if this is old - my bad
crow_winters
[11] Champion
So post blocked [B ], what can ZWEI do to stop step? 6A is out of range, 66A is too slow to stop step > G, 66B only stops button presses and backdash, walking forward is pretty obvious/opens you up to eating whatever 8WR attack thier about to do, Ein cooldown prevents you from doing [A]...
It's weird to have all this frame advantage and no way to take advantage of it.
It's weird to have all this frame advantage and no way to take advantage of it.
Lasercakes
[12] Conqueror
Highest priority:
22BB should not whiff so bad for no reason. The second hit should never ever fail to reconnect. I can't imagine this could possibly be the design intent, hopefully it was just overlooked and the flaw isn't in the system itself.
Same deal with WR B. BT B+K should always come out after it connects even if it trades. It would only be acceptable if the hit stun from the trade put Zwei into a faster recovery state than the recovery of WR B. Hopefully the system isn't flawed and it can be fixed.
EDIT: Hitting a grounded character with 1(B) K in certain setups and character hit boxes should be a force block. But if you hit G at just the right moment before the kick hits, you can hit G and it will whiff your character. Visually this moment is around when Zwei's foot passes your character. For some strange reason the kick connects after his foot passes. I can't imagine this is intentional.
Huh?:
If it's designer intent to have 44B hit grounded, why is the hit box so unreliable? Please make it better in that its intended qualities make the move's intended purpose more clear.
6B+K. Where in a fight am I supposed to go, "Hey a 6B+K would work great here?"
6B+K A R connects with strict timing. I don't think very many people know that, but I still can't imagine how to make the move connect. It's a slow linear high with no evasive properties.
3A BE. Why am I spending meter to make my attack unsafe on the chance that my opponent doesn't try to duck 3AA? This isn't a 2KB mix-up, but 2K BE B is safer in that when blocked you can gamble with the last hit. Maybe it's a shitty comparison, but I just don't get why devs would make a move like this more terrible than it needs to be.
Why am I not allowed to block if I risk doing (B+G)? Is Zwei too strong if he isn't risking getting his shins 2Aed?
6A. Unsafe, slow, high, and characters seem to step right though it. I don't really have too much issue with this move honestly, I just feel that it's worse (unsafe) than it needs to be. I would like to usethe range the move provides, but if that's too unreasonable for some reason I'll find a way to live with it.
Underrated moves:
I suppose this is the section for disagreeing with other posters. I think 33B is a good move. It tech steps and tech crouches and is safe to most things at tip. Is it that the rest of the cast have better tools with this property?
1(B) doesn't need to hit mid, and especially not horizontal mid. It may be a clumsy move at i21 or so, but it definitely doesn't need to be any where near the realm of a free mix-up on block.
My greed list:
Slightly more range on B and BB
Slightly more range on A and AA OR 6A safety.
I realize Project Soul would rather emphasize other moves than AA and BB, but I do think it's more fitting to Zwei having (B) and (A). I might change my mind if I had a larger list of safe pokes to try for advantage from neutral frames.
22BB should not whiff so bad for no reason. The second hit should never ever fail to reconnect. I can't imagine this could possibly be the design intent, hopefully it was just overlooked and the flaw isn't in the system itself.
Same deal with WR B. BT B+K should always come out after it connects even if it trades. It would only be acceptable if the hit stun from the trade put Zwei into a faster recovery state than the recovery of WR B. Hopefully the system isn't flawed and it can be fixed.
EDIT: Hitting a grounded character with 1(B) K in certain setups and character hit boxes should be a force block. But if you hit G at just the right moment before the kick hits, you can hit G and it will whiff your character. Visually this moment is around when Zwei's foot passes your character. For some strange reason the kick connects after his foot passes. I can't imagine this is intentional.
Huh?:
If it's designer intent to have 44B hit grounded, why is the hit box so unreliable? Please make it better in that its intended qualities make the move's intended purpose more clear.
6B+K. Where in a fight am I supposed to go, "Hey a 6B+K would work great here?"
6B+K A R connects with strict timing. I don't think very many people know that, but I still can't imagine how to make the move connect. It's a slow linear high with no evasive properties.
3A BE. Why am I spending meter to make my attack unsafe on the chance that my opponent doesn't try to duck 3AA? This isn't a 2KB mix-up, but 2K BE B is safer in that when blocked you can gamble with the last hit. Maybe it's a shitty comparison, but I just don't get why devs would make a move like this more terrible than it needs to be.
Why am I not allowed to block if I risk doing (B+G)? Is Zwei too strong if he isn't risking getting his shins 2Aed?
6A. Unsafe, slow, high, and characters seem to step right though it. I don't really have too much issue with this move honestly, I just feel that it's worse (unsafe) than it needs to be. I would like to usethe range the move provides, but if that's too unreasonable for some reason I'll find a way to live with it.
Underrated moves:
I suppose this is the section for disagreeing with other posters. I think 33B is a good move. It tech steps and tech crouches and is safe to most things at tip. Is it that the rest of the cast have better tools with this property?
1(B) doesn't need to hit mid, and especially not horizontal mid. It may be a clumsy move at i21 or so, but it definitely doesn't need to be any where near the realm of a free mix-up on block.
My greed list:
Slightly more range on B and BB
Slightly more range on A and AA OR 6A safety.
I realize Project Soul would rather emphasize other moves than AA and BB, but I do think it's more fitting to Zwei having (B) and (A). I might change my mind if I had a larger list of safe pokes to try for advantage from neutral frames.
ZOMBIEBEAR666
[09] Warrior
Be nice if KF A had the same Hit/CH property as CH 6A, at least allow 1K{BE} to combo because the move is balls, don't even care if its -14...
GoldDragon
[08] Mercenary
22B,B. Fix it. 2nd hit shouldn't whiff for no good reason.
6B+K series. I know it's probably unrealistic but...... I'd be all for completely getting rid of all of it and making it something else. I can't find a place for it and I really don't know what it's supposed to do.
44B/44B hold. Come on man. 54 frames until impact? There are unblockables that takes less time.
I get that Zwei's not supposed to have a lot of quick attacks. He's kinda like Astaroth and Mare and Sieg. But even Asta has a bullrush and the knee. Mare has 4b and 6b. These are TCs that people fear. I say give Zwei something like that. Let his 4b be a tech crouch. Extend the range of it. Make it feared. And/or shorten the impact frames on 3A to 17. Same theory behind 4B.
6B+K series. I know it's probably unrealistic but...... I'd be all for completely getting rid of all of it and making it something else. I can't find a place for it and I really don't know what it's supposed to do.
44B/44B hold. Come on man. 54 frames until impact? There are unblockables that takes less time.
I get that Zwei's not supposed to have a lot of quick attacks. He's kinda like Astaroth and Mare and Sieg. But even Asta has a bullrush and the knee. Mare has 4b and 6b. These are TCs that people fear. I say give Zwei something like that. Let his 4b be a tech crouch. Extend the range of it. Make it feared. And/or shorten the impact frames on 3A to 17. Same theory behind 4B.
J
JustinAkatsuki
Guest
Ok I decided to bring this up since I've seen other SA's with a thread like this. Lets keep it civil and focus on what can be best for zwei. This patch may happen or not.......but eh nothing hurts to try.
Now im going to suggest my buffs for zwei.
-3A BE to be safe and hit confirmable ( just like 4B BE)
-4B change from -14 to -12 on block.
-[B+K] BE to have armor
About [B+K] BE i wanted to hear you guys opinion on it..since B+K BE gets interrupted quite often and avoided rather easily for those who know how to fight zwei....with the armor maybe make ein on this BE do less damage? like 35 as opposed to 54 with the regular B+K BE or keep the damage the same? Atleasts with the armor opponents cannot just interrupt and harass zwei and would actually have to think about interrupting him or not should they run into the armor version...also I find no use for the current [B+K] BE since I think ein just comes out a second later.....
44A- have a better hitbox.
Better throw range.
Fixes- BB and AA to not whiff alot on hit.
Make 4B BE consistent on hit with B+K
22_88 BB not whiff so much
Ok this is all I can think of for now ...personally I don't think he needs too much and even a lil something like a fast low is just too dangerous imo I fear it would make his B+K BE setup way too strong. Also I went back on my 6A and A+B buff, make 6A track both sides and A+B safe on block but 40 damage on hit isn't too bad..as for 6A combined with making 3A BE like 4B BE may be just too good...so eh not sure on those lol Well guys come up with your own suggestions and discuss.
Now im going to suggest my buffs for zwei.
-3A BE to be safe and hit confirmable ( just like 4B BE)
-4B change from -14 to -12 on block.
-[B+K] BE to have armor
About [B+K] BE i wanted to hear you guys opinion on it..since B+K BE gets interrupted quite often and avoided rather easily for those who know how to fight zwei....with the armor maybe make ein on this BE do less damage? like 35 as opposed to 54 with the regular B+K BE or keep the damage the same? Atleasts with the armor opponents cannot just interrupt and harass zwei and would actually have to think about interrupting him or not should they run into the armor version...also I find no use for the current [B+K] BE since I think ein just comes out a second later.....
44A- have a better hitbox.
Better throw range.
Fixes- BB and AA to not whiff alot on hit.
Make 4B BE consistent on hit with B+K
22_88 BB not whiff so much
Ok this is all I can think of for now ...personally I don't think he needs too much and even a lil something like a fast low is just too dangerous imo I fear it would make his B+K BE setup way too strong. Also I went back on my 6A and A+B buff, make 6A track both sides and A+B safe on block but 40 damage on hit isn't too bad..as for 6A combined with making 3A BE like 4B BE may be just too good...so eh not sure on those lol Well guys come up with your own suggestions and discuss.